Terrain

[Nomad]

I kind of like Nethack's pushable boulders as an obstacle that the player (or monsters?) can reposition but that takes up a square. Webs are a logical one too, since we don't yet have an obstacle that pins you in one place without outright paralysing you.

As for lava, I think it could still be potentially interesting as dungeon terrain even just the way it originally was in town - essentially a type of permarock that glows. You could have it occur in cavern levels as a source of natural light, perhaps even increase the light radius a bit so it lights up more of the surrounding dungeon. (Light-blocking terrain is another possibility - some type of square that reduces the player's light-radius to 1 when they pass through it and/or hides monster-light.)

In general I think it's worth flipping the question of what terrain types to add around; instead of "Here are some possible terrain types we could add, what effects should they have?" the approach ought to be to come up with an interesting effect, and then pick a name/look to fit that type of terrain afterwards.

So - what kind of things would it be interesting for terrain to do?

[Derakon]

So - what kind of things would it be interesting for terrain to do?

Give combat modifiers to creatures standing next to them -- glowing elvish/Black Speech runes inscribed on the wall that grant to-hit / to-dam bonuses, buttresses and pillars that increase AC vs. ranged attacks, pools of raw mana that increase SP regeneration.

Create light, as you said. Just passively being lit up is good, but we could also have "sentry" walls that emit an elemental beam a turn after anything passes in front of them, with early variants just casting Spear of Light. Sentries could also be timered instead of on a motion-detection trigger.

Periodically do a melee attack against whatever is standing next to them -- walls covered with crawling worms or hungry vines. Successful hits could hold the target in place for a turn or two, not paralyzed, just unable to walk.

This starts to get into "trap" territory as well -- traps try to make the game interesting by creating areas the player doesn't want to go into, while other types of terrain try to add interest by creating areas the player wants to stay in.

[Nick]

In general I think it's worth flipping the question of what terrain types to add around; instead of "Here are some possible terrain types we could add, what effects should they have?" the approach ought to be to come up with an interesting effect, and then pick a name/look to fit that type of terrain afterwards.

So - what kind of things would it be interesting for terrain to do?

This is of of course correct - although you also want the terrain to feel like something that would be in the dungeon.

My first thought is for terrain that allows different combinations of passable by player and monsters, passable by vision, and passable by spells and missiles. One possibility is to make lava completely impassable, but allow LoS and ranged attacks to pass over it.

[Pete Mack]

This is of of course correct - although you also want the terrain to feel like something that would be in the dungeon.

My first thought is for terrain that allows different combinations of passable by player and monsters, passable by vision, and passable by spells and missiles. One possibility is to make lava completely impassable, but allow LoS and ranged attacks to pass over it.

Things you might actually find in the depths of Angband: smoke, shadow, lava, chasm, scree (deep, hard to pass, undiggable rubble), fumes, fire, volcanic glass (slippery; all physical attacks have a chance of knockback against the player and 'small', nonmoving monsters.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Things you might actually find in the depths of Angband: smoke, shadow, lava, chasm, scree (deep, hard to pass, undiggable rubble), fumes, fire, volcanic glass (slippery; all physical attacks have a chance of knockback against the player and 'small', nonmoving monsters.

And webs... those spiders are doing something down there.

[AnonymousHero]

Ah, yes, webs... another thing that appears in T2 (and, I think, FA)? The only real effect is that you absolutely hate that particular dungeon and never ever want to go there again. I doesn't actually add much challenge or interest.

... and I think this is the problem with terrain. At the very least you need to make it hugely interesting thematically or mechanically. I think the latter is a real challenge unless it's the whole basis of the game. T2 kind of gets-there-but-not-really in e.g. the Mountain of Fire which makes excellent thematic sense, but the effect is just that all characters need ImmFire. So... it's difficult to get it to make sense.

[wobbly]

Had a particularly cruel start today. Was cut off from the town by lava.

[Pete Mack]

Awesome! No stores extra strength ironman.

[wobbly]

Awesome! No stores extra strength ironman.

Particularly as it was no starting kit/ironman. Torch, food ration & fists on a half troll rogue. Didn't get far.

[fizzix]

Some of my thoughts:

Lava should be impassable, unless the player or monster has rFire and/or levitation/flight.

Chasms are interesting only if they can be bridged. Right now we have phase-door option only for bridging chasms. But we'd need something like boots of levitation or boots of jumping to get across them.

Webs are interesting only if they are used very sparingly. We should avoid something like DCSS's spider nest. Instead, webs should be something passively done by Shelob and Ungoliant and maybe that's it. Alternatively, webs should be something that occur only very early in the dungeon and prevent movement or spellcasting unless you have free action. Solitary cave spiders can make them (remove grouped cave spiders).

Glass is interesting for vaults, you can see what's in there. A glass walled vault that prevents detection inside is appealing. You get to see a bit of what's there, but not everything.

Fog is useful for two purposes, escape and closing distance without being subjected to ranged attacks. So I would prefer to see fog as more of a tactical thing than a standard terrain thing. Lesser fog could be an aura on some floors that just reduces visibility. Although we'd have to do something about ensuring players can't just pelt the fog with magic missiles or other beam or ball spells. (Basically rework how spells affect unseen monsters)

Battlements seem like a good thing for new mini-areas in dungeons, an idea that I've thought about for many years. Basically imagine coming across an orc encampment, where the entrance has a wall and an open area. Orc archers stand behind battlements in the wall and shoot at the player as they try to approach. You take a lot of damage to get inside unless you have some way of getting past the archers (fog spell, deflect missiles spell, etc.)

[Mondkalb]

Webs are interesting only if they are used very sparingly. We should avoid something like DCSS's spider nest. Instead, webs should be something passively done by Shelob and Ungoliant and maybe that's it. Alternatively, webs should be something that occur only very early in the dungeon and prevent movement or spellcasting unless you have free action. Solitary cave spiders can make them (remove grouped cave spiders).

Interesting idea. If you were to find webs on a level it would be a sign that Shelob or Ungolianth are on the level.

[Pete Mack]

Well sometimes you can tell Ungoliant is present because of the room shaped like an

S

[EpicMan]

Halls of Mist (which is a variant or newer version of EyAngband) has several terrain types that work very well with its combat and skill system. The most unique is the platform or table. It is a square of terrain in a room that can be seen over, provides cover (projectiles tend to miss) to someone standing next to it (but not on it), and gives a miss chance when someone on the ground attacks someone on the table.

Characters have a Jumping skill, which affects their chance to climb onto the table (failed climb is a lost turn!).

It also allowed you to stand next to a table and shoot over it, using it as cover to partially avoid retaliation. It was really a great feature.

[tumbleweed]

• Battlements (working title) - can be seen over, allow missiles and spells but not movement

How about gratings / portcullis? (Oh yes, and how about using # for those in text mode! ...I keed, I keed.)

Or maybe chevaux de frise (cavalry barriers)? Well, the proper name may be too obscure, so you could just call them "barriers" I guess. Though there's always the question how all this stuff gets down there.

Guess those are mostly ideas on how to visualize this particular kind of obstacle.


Oh, and also: Trees don't gr-- ...never mind.

[Patashu]

To add to the discussion, Quickband has various terrain elements (maybe NPPAngband has them as well?), and the game can be beaten in a day or two so you can see how they work for yourself.

In particular, it has:
1) Walls that emit radius 1 light.
2) Deeper in the dungeon, 'silent watcher' walls that shriek and can damage you. Seem to hate being tunneled into. Not totally sure how these work.
3) Biomes that take up rooms, cut across the dungeon or take up an entire floor. I didn't figure out everything they can do:
3a) Forests, with trees that can be tunneled through, and foilage that blocks LoS but can be walked onto. Once an entire dungeon floor was one big forest room, because of all the LoS blockers it was really interesting to fight in. Also flowers that can shoot spikes at you?
3b) Water. There's waves that crest across water rooms, but I'm not sure what they do. Looks pretty though! Can generate a river that cuts through a whole dungeon floor.
3c) Ice. Ice walls can be seen through, and ice attacks do more damage in this terrain.
3d) Fire. The floor is made of oil that sets on fire if hit by a fire attack. Rooms have mazes of flames that fire-native monsters can hide in and ambush you out of.
3e) Sand. Has dunes. Not sure what this one does.
4) 'glowing runes', traps that periodically activate if you're in their LoS, to do things like shoot elemental balls, elemental beams or shriek. Makes traps more relevant. Was rather surprising when a nexus glowing rune teleported me to another level! Ranged trapdoors D: