Terrain

[Nick]

The latest development build on the nightly build page has some new styles of dungeon level, and (as promised in the plans thread) has introduced some terrain changes. So far we have

• Rubble - the passable rubble already in the town now appears in the dungeon as well (there is still some impassable rubble in the dungeon, too)
• Lava - lava can now be entered by the player, but will burn them. Lava also appears in certain special rooms and vaults in the dungeon. It is impassable to monsters unless they are fire-immune, and can be frozen to rock by strong cold attacks and created from rock by strong fire attacks.

So the question is - what else? Possibilities include

• Water - looks pretty, probably will stop some monsters and slow the player
• Trees - look pretty, probably behave rather like passable rubble, will burn
• Glass (or whatever) - can be seen through but stops movement, missiles and probably spells
• Battlements (working title) - can be seen over, allow missiles and spells but not movement

The aims are to add tactical interest, and also to add to "feeling of immersion" or whatever.

All comments most welcome (although I'd like at least an attempt reasoned argument ).

[Derakon]

I would be very careful with creating lava from fire attacks. ToME 2 does this and it's kind of a pain in the ass for there to be a bunch of damage tiles appearing just because you cast Fireball a few times or ran into a pack of Fire Hounds.

I'm not saying "don't do it", just make the damage threshold high enough (>500 unresisted?) that you're only likely to see it occasionally in the mid-late game. A Great Hell Wyrm making lava is fine. Not so much the Fire Hounds.

[AnonymousHero]

I would be very careful with creating lava from fire attacks. ToME 2 does this and it's kind of a pain in the ass for there to be a bunch of damage tiles appearing just because you cast Fireball a few times or ran into a pack of Fire Hounds.

Speaking as a huge fan (and sort-of-maintainer) of T2... and even ignoring the annoyances of tile damage, having a huge amount of different types of floor tiles can lead to a really confusing and noisy dungeon display. Perhaps it's not too bad if the dungeon itself is only ever generated as "plain" (but monsters can change it via spells/breaths), but when you have dungeons with water/corrupted tiles, etc. it gets really noisy.

So, I'd generally urge a lot a caution even just having more than 2-3 types of floor tiles.

[bio_hazard]

I agree that having all types possible on any given level messy. However, if limited types are available in any given pits/vaults, or in special level types, that might be OK. It might be worth thinking about a thematic progression of types- caves and forests early on like it's the approach or outer reaches of the dungeon, then moving more into more underground things as you go deeper. This would also be somewhat thematic with the lower level monsters (animals, orcs, elves).

Types you haven't mentioned: Chasm (passable by flying creatures, levitating creatures, otherwise acts as a trap door).

Shiny Wall (i.e. mirror)- reflects beams, provided 2-way visibility around corners. Admittedly very limited use cases here.

Moss/gravel. Modify stealth up or down, maybe to hit benefits/malus due to footing.

Moving water could increase stealth nearby, and maybe provide an exit for the player and/or increase spawn rate. I think drowning when overburdened is frustrating but it is an interesting mechanic I guess? Trees don't add much that the rubble adds as it is now, but I suppose that could change- maybe thorny shrubs that cause damage/cuts, or allow the player to rest undetected by monsters.

I think starting with just Lava and Battlements would be a good idea, since this is a pretty big change.

[Pete Mack]

Lava and chasms and shadow are the only ones that make sense in "The Pits of Angband." Not much grass or water in Mordor, where the shadows lie. Gravel (like NPP sand) makes sense too.
Shadow: Reduces light radius by 1/2. Makes magical illumination impossible. Gives light resistance, but gives darkness vulnerability.

[nikheizen]

Not sure how I feel about water/lava being both being walkable (though I guess lava would need to be walkable if it can be created by monsters - agree with Derakon's assessment of the high damage requirement for this). I feel if they are both walkable at a cost they will be a bit too samey. With the current implementation of Lava, I think unwalkable water would be better.

Very against having a chasms-levitation interaction for this reason, levitation would just be rFloors.

That said, walkable lava (assuming you have some rF+) and chasms would be my top picks.
Battlements could be cool as well. Actually interested in playtesting assuming I don't spend all my roguelikes time this month on the DCSS tournament....

[Ingwe Ingweron]

FAAngband has this... and I think it works pretty well there. Looking forward to seeing it in Vanilla.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

One minor cosmetic issue. The symbol for this new version of lava uses the ASCII / Hybrid walls format "#", even if the solid walls option is selected. Previously, the lava would show up commensurate with what would be expected as a solid wall type symbol for lava.

[Nick]

I would be very careful with creating lava from fire attacks. ToME 2 does this and it's kind of a pain in the ass for there to be a bunch of damage tiles appearing just because you cast Fireball a few times or ran into a pack of Fire Hounds.

I'm not saying "don't do it", just make the damage threshold high enough (>500 unresisted?) that you're only likely to see it occasionally in the mid-late game. A Great Hell Wyrm making lava is fine. Not so much the Fire Hounds.

Currently the fire damage on a grid has to be 600 + 1d1800, so it's not going to be too common.

Thanks for all the thoughts, keep them coming.

[Mondkalb]

FAAngband has this... and I think it works pretty well there. Looking forward to seeing it in Vanilla.

[quarague]

Brogue has a few terrain types that work well there.
Chasms = open space only works well with a permanent dungeon, so not suitable for angband.
rubble corresponds to bushes in brogue, they have the additional properties to be burnable and be destroyed when walked through
water comes in two depths:
little water just slows down movement, gives to hit penalty and reduces stealth, fits in angband as well
deep water makes melee impossible, you occasionally loose items that float away, could work in angband, probably needs different monster behaviors, a) non swimmer, will not enter deep water, b) swimmer will enter but also can't fight c) water creature or flying creature, can move and fight in water
lava - can only be crossed while floating, only flying monsters can enter lava tiles

[Estie]

*Sigh* no lava please

Apart from it not making sense, the only game effect it has is to test players click precision. It is easy to avoid stepping into lava in the real world, as it is easy to avoid accidentally hitting friendly inhabitants, but hard in a game where you move and attack with a keypress. While this unnatural situation has been used before to make dexterity testing click games, this kind of game mechanics has never been part of Angband (and also those games arent in my playing list), so why start with it now ?

I know and hate lava from tome2 and when I returned to Vanilla, I was very glad that that was over. Just - no.

[Rydel]

Another possibility for water would be for a portion of electrical damage to be passed to adjacent monsters that are also in water. There's a reason you aren't supposed to take a shower in a thunderstorm after all.

[bio_hazard]

Any chance we'll get a target-able blink/phase door spell to take advantage of all this new variation in terrain?

[Huqhox]

I think terrian will be good provided it's only occasional, maybe a special level or as indicated a very powerful attack causing it. If it's used all the time it will just become same-y

I'd say you need a terrain type for each element, like the lava = fire. And bars might be a better terrain type than 'battlements' and achieve the same purpose