how long do you scum DL 90+ ?

[Ingwe Ingweron]

However ...

You're not challenging yourself. You're not going to discover your weaknesses if winning is that automatic.
.... Still, it might be worth a shot. If you want a challenge, you may have to create it for yourself.

Ummm... I think you may be making some assumptions there. Your proposition is that winning percentage is a proxy for whether I'm challenging myself. You're failing to take into account a long history of playing and a deep reservoir of skill built up over that period across many versions of the game. Skill developed by discovering and then strengthening weaknesses. I have a winner in every race class combination, I have eeked out wins or placed in several of the Angband comps, and have even done MattB's fists-only challenge. It seems a little presumptuous to declare that I'm not going to discover my weaknesses simply because I've gotten pretty good at playing this game.

Mostly, now I only play comps and, since I don't know how to code, contribute by playtesting the nightlies for Nick.

[PowerDiver]

It seems a little presumptuous to declare that I'm not going to discover my weaknesses simply because I've gotten pretty good at playing this game.

Presumptuous is on the money, and it is polite of you to say "little" rather than "very". Doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I'm a particularly strong player, or at least I used to be. My advice is likely more accurate and nuanced than you think it is.

[Pete Mack]

Welcome back Eddie Grove! Give Sil a try!
Ingwe--arguing about diving with the guy that literally wrote the book* perhaps requires second and third thoughts.

* r.g.r.a "Tales of the Bold"

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Presumptuous is on the money, and it is polite of you to say "little" rather than "very". Doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I'm a particularly strong player, or at least I used to be. My advice is likely more accurate and nuanced than you think it is.

You are probably right. Trying to keep up with PowerWyrm's and Elliptic's turncounts do push me to dive very, very, fast, though. Far outside any comfort zone, so I think it keeps me learning. I'm still not in their league, just got massively lucky twice in being able to barely edge out PowerWyrm in Comp 169 and Comp 194, but those were definitely outliers. Comp 186 was particularly risky, finishing off Morgoth with only 4 hps remaining and no heals left. I'll keep trying to push the envelope and improve. How do PowerWyrm and Elliptic consistently deliver such great turncounts?! Chasing the sound-barrier.

Edit: to correct comp number.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Ingwe--arguing about diving with the guy that literally wrote the book* perhaps requires second and third thoughts.

* r.g.r.a "Tales of the Bold"

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I don't think there was any argument about diving, rather there was complete agreement on that topic. See my post about alpine speed climbing referenced above.

The argument I was disagreeing with is that if an experienced player is not dying to Morgoth about 10% of the time, they're not pushing themselves. I don't think that's necessarily the case. To me, it's the getting to Morgoth part that should be pushing the envelope. Once you are actually fighting the Big Boss, you should pretty well know how to beat him.

[PowerDiver]

Welcome back Eddie Grove! Give Sil a try!

Someone sent me mail nicely asking me to return, so I did. I don't know how long I'll stay. I'm not playing any *bands right now, not for nearly a year. Maybe I'll post why later.

Somebody needs to teach these guys to believe people who know a little game theory. If the game isn't trivial, your strategy should lead to you always taking risks. For example in baseball: game tied, bases loaded, bottom of the ninth, 3-2 count, you still ought to throw balls a statistically significant amount of the time risking the walk to lose the game. I know it's not precisely analogous, but please just believe me. It's impossible for an optimal strategy to include not to ever die to M.

There was a recent YASD that at least pleased me in one way. Complained of losing 28 hours. Before I started preaching, that might have been 28 weeks or even 28 months.

Now I get rude. I really have been trying to be polite these past few days, but there are limits. I can't hold it in any more. The comment telling *me* that an artifactless ranger in a version with a quiver was "very difficult" was so absurd I nearly pulled a muscle. The newbs have no idea how badly the game has been nerfed. Being able to win most of the time is a sign you need to do something to up the difficulty level. I recommended 3.0 with mods upthread, but it doesn't matter if you choose ironman [is that force_descent now?] in 3.5 or whatever other challenge you like, just so long as you do something to get out of your comfort zone. When you can beat that half the time, up the difficulty again.

[Nick]

Now I get rude. I really have been trying to be polite these past few days, but there are limits. I can't hold it in any more. The comment telling *me* that an artifactless ranger in a version with a quiver was "very difficult" was so absurd I nearly pulled a muscle. The newbs have no idea how badly the game has been nerfed. Being able to win most of the time is a sign you need to do something to up the difficulty level. I recommended 3.0 with mods upthread, but it doesn't matter if you choose ironman [is that force_descent now?] in 3.5 or whatever other challenge you like, just so long as you do something to get out of your comfort zone. When you can beat that half the time, up the difficulty again.

The kids say n00b these days, Eddie

I second Pete's recommendation to you to play Sil if you get back to playing at all. It's not Angband, but it's a beautifully crafted game.

[debo]

Poscheng is another good place to go if you want to flex how risk-tolerant you are. It kills you in more angbandy ways than Sil does, and it does it in style. Also, it's insane. Also, rockets and Japan.

[Pete Mack]

I agree a 3.0 variant with better ID and squelch would be ideal. While the game is easier today, the code is infinitely better. Fitting out a 3.0 skin would be a huge win. I am really disliking the attenuated breath damage in the current development branch. It's an idea from NPP that probably shouldn't have been made. The excesses of 3.5, however, have mostly been overcome.

[shadow]

The newbs have no idea how badly the game has been nerfed.

What versions and/or variants would you consider properly challenging?

[PowerDiver]

What versions and/or variants would you consider properly challenging?

3.0?

It was sublime. Nothing else is even great.

3.0 had its problems. Dealing with massive drops was the main one. If you had only wands of acid balls and not rods of acid balls, identifying armor meant clearing the level, and then dragging all the armor to an area where you could acid ball.

I think 3.0 with *ID on walkover and decent squelch beats everything else available.

I am unwilling to release what I play. I have seen too many of my ideas misinterpreted to justify the nerfing, and I would be nauseated to see anything I do get into 3.5+ going forward. BTW, if you call 3.1+ Vanilla in a post directed towards me, you just piss me off. Vanilla ended with 3.0.9. I'll refrain from calling 3.1+ what I call it IRL if you refrain from calling that travesty V. Actually, I won't call it what I call it IRL because that's not suitable for a public forum, but please pretend I threatened you.

I've decided to write why I don't play *bands any more, and it is a novel. I was just going to write "Eddie's hiatus - a tragedy" but everything depends on everything else and its more than half my life story. After being a hater, I have a sudden understanding of GRRM. I'm hoping it will be therapeutic.

I'm feeling ornery, so I'll tease you mercilessly. I'll release a couple files listing the changes to 3.0.9 that I used. I'd suppose it is missing lots, because my life has sucked beyond your capacity to imagine, and that screws with keeping updates. It's balance is broken, cause I just didn't care. That should tell you what you need to know about my life sucking.

[Estie]

3.0?

It was sublime. Nothing else is even great.

3.0 had its problems. Dealing with massive drops was the main one. If you had only wands of acid balls and not rods of acid balls, identifying armor meant clearing the level, and then dragging all the armor to an area where you could acid ball.

I think 3.0 with *ID on walkover and decent squelch beats everything else available.

I am unwilling to release what I play. I have seen too many of my ideas misinterpreted to justify the nerfing, and I would be nauseated to see anything I do get into 3.5+ going forward. BTW, if you call 3.1+ Vanilla in a post directed towards me, you just piss me off. Vanilla ended with 3.0.9. I'll refrain from calling 3.1+ what I call it IRL if you refrain from calling that travesty V. Actually, I won't call it what I call it IRL because that's not suitable for a public forum, but please pretend I threatened you.

I've decided to write why I don't play *bands any more, and it is a novel. I was just going to write "Eddie's hiatus - a tragedy" but everything depends on everything else and its more than half my life story. After being a hater, I have a sudden understanding of GRRM. I'm hoping it will be therapeutic.

I'm feeling ornery, so I'll tease you mercilessly. I'll release a couple files listing the changes to 3.0.9 that I used. I'd suppose it is missing lots, because my life has sucked beyond your capacity to imagine, and that screws with keeping updates. It's balance is broken, cause I just didn't care. That should tell you what you need to know about my life sucking.

What, in particular, do you like about 3.0 so much over 3.1+ that you refer to the latter as "travesty" ?

[PowerDiver]

What, in particular, do you like about 3.0 so much over 3.1+ that you refer to the latter as "travesty" ?

Do you guys even like roguelikes?

You know, in rgra, that second 'r'.

Roguelikes are games of slot management. At the core, you are fighting to manage your slots. The game environment provides the reasons. M is not the foe. Managing your slots until you reach him is the true fight.

V was maybe 92/100 as a roguelike, and 15/100 as an rpg. If you want to play an rpg, there are many that are so so much better. Go play one of them. But as a roguelike, best game I ever played.

People wanting to improve the rpg aspects changed it. Now it's 30/100 as a roguelike, and 25/100 as an rpg. Way better in their minds. Utterly pointless in my mind. If you want an rpg, play something better. There are good rpgs, I have heard, even if I don't play them.

Just think about the quiver. How many slots does that give you? I wouldn't be opposed to having it available as a cheat mode, but a frigging default?!? The old old-timers would never have stood for it.

I remember playing V and having 2 slots left to choose from 2 !CCW, 2 !CMW, and 3 arrows of acid. Playing a char with no conf or poison resistance in the depths. The CCW are obvious, but do I go with offense or defense? Those CCW are precious, can I afford to put myself in a situation where I'd have to waste one because I don't have the CMW any more? But those 3 arrows could help me kill a high value target. I might put my game on hold for a day or two to let the arguments sort themselves out in the back of my brain. Getting this sort of thing right is what it took to get below 400K game turns in V. Now, the arrows are in the quiver, and you find the potions in boatloads at a time and you don't even care an iota.

The combat system came basically from AD&D. That is an additive system. All sorts of non-additive changes were made. Many of them might have been undone [I hear things but am basically out of touch], but the concept of cures healing percentages rather than fixed hitpoints is utterly broken in an additive system. How was it even introduced? Because people misinterpreted my complaints about needing squelch to deal with boatloads of armor. I try to improve things, and my words are used to justify ruining the game. I don't know if the misinterpretations were willful or clueless, but they ruined the game either way. And I was used as the justification. It really pisses me off. Still. I should just get over it, I know.

How about combat? Do you know what the BIGGEST gameplay complaint about V was? Let me exclude the ID/squelch because I view those more as UI than gameplay.

The biggest complaint was the early strong high strength low dex characters preferred daggers and did too much damage with them. What do we have now? A character that would have been 80% of the way from 2 blows to 3 blows with a dagger now gets 2.8 blows per round, compared to 2 blows per round before. That's a 40% increase in damage. Then he picks up rings of reckless attacks and it is crazy. Then a potion of brawn.

The reason I played those ridiculous challenges was that I could not challenge myself in 3.1+. It wasn't even *possible*. I could play an ironman human, spend all of my starting money on scrolls of stair location, and I still lacked the skill to dive fast enough to make the game non-trivial.

Here's a game I played on autopilot, no conscious effort to optimize anything, and I made many mistakes without paying any real penalties for the mistakes.
https://<br /> http://angband.oook....id=11535<br />

I am angry and bitter due to real life, and not capable of fine distinctions, but I remember thinking about the situation long ago. It was my opinion that I would have far more respect for a 3.0 win playing a high-elf character that cheated death once at DL50 because of stupidity attempting a vault that was too tough, compared to an ironman human in 3.1+, any class you choose. Long-ago-me really thought that, and I trust that guy. Throw in randarts in 3.1+, and you could up it to 2 cheat-deaths and I would still have more respect for the 3.0 "win".

Hmmm ... Estie ... the cogs grind slowly. You might have been the person who put randarts into perfect perspective for me. They were utterly broken, and then they were "fixed". After they were "fixed", someone posted a dump, and someone commented on the dump, don't remember if the same person. The commenter's name started with 'E'. I don't know why that detail sticks, but it feels like a cold hard fact. The comment was that it was a below-average endgame weapon. That weapon was better than Ringil! [This in the context of how much speed characters playing randarts usually had.]

Did you know people occasionally emailed me asking to restore savefiles with dead chars? I figured out how to do it and was glad to help them. I've got my principles, but I know they don't apply to everyone else. Cheat-death is a lesser abuse than simply playing 3.1+. I exaggerate only a tiny little bit.

Apparently you guys are looking into overhauling traps. Good for you, I guess, but really? It's a roguelike. Traps exist as a one-slot penalty to warriors and maybe priest-chars [I really don't remember, I've been playing my own stuff so long through my pain]. That's their real point. I suppose to some people their patterns in vaults look pretty. Change them and remove detecting them, and the upshot is that you've changed the play balance between warriors and other chars in the time up until a rod of detection is found. Maybe good, maybe bad, but that's should be your *first* thought if you care about play balance while maintaining a ROGUELIKE.

I'm not opposed to fixing traps, but making them just scary enough that a typical player would have an interesting choice whether to devote a slot to scrolls of trap detection sounds like a problem way too hard for someone like me. Better to spend that effort on something else IMO. If you look at my changelist, you'll see I spent a *lot* of time making changes. It never even occurred to me to try to do anything about traps. Now I remember, what I did was to remove trap detection from priest books before full detection. Let more classes pay the slot tax. Differentiate the class abilities.

If you really want to improve the game, spend a few dozen hours looking at the magic numbers in the combat code, and maybe tune one or two. Oh wait, those numbers crafted over how many years were thrown out completely, because the randart implementer was too incompetent to get AC right. Maybe those magic numbers weren't crafted, I never spoke to any of the old coders, but I have so much respect for the game I have my assumptions.

It took me months to get the magic numbers right in my blows code. Getting those numbers just right is the real difference between good and great, not how many stupid flashy gameplay additions you make. The truly important changes don't even show up in the changelist for a release.

I wanted to say "cue the sig", then I thought should it be cue or queue, and then I thought is that phrase even a thing any more?

Anyway, my signature sums up why Vanilla was great. Keep only the best. Don't add gratuitously for the sake of change or variety. I didn't get my sig from anywhere, it's just obvious, but I googled and apparently it's attributed to DaVinci who I didn't even know spoke English. [sarcasm, obviously, but in a written forum I guess I have to specify]