Rune-based ID

[Nick]

The new feature branch with rune-based ID implemented is now available, built for Windows or OS X, or as source. It is reasonably thoroughly tested, but I expect there will still be many bugs.

The main gameplay changes are:

• No more magical ID
• No more pseudo-ID
• Once a property has been noticed on any object, it will always be noticed on every object
• Artifact names are noticed immediately, ego and jewellery names when all the regular properties are known
• Shop items only show the extent of the player's knowledge, so indistinguishable (to the player) objects may have different prices
• Derakon's change of the nexus stat-scramble to a timed effect is included

Savefiles are comprehensively broken, but monster lore should be transferable.

I would appreciate some playtesting, bugfinding, and philosophising about these changes. They are large, and make the game feel quite different.

I will be very interested to hear opinions.

[spara]

The shop really should show the qualities of the weapon/armor/ring/whatever they're selling even if you don't recognize the runes. It feels really weird that the shopkeeper does not tell the customer that the onyx ring {unseen} is really a ring of searching.

[spara]

And IMHO the initial equipment should be fully known. Here's my poor ranger's family heritage bow:

[spara]

A repeatable CTD, save file attached. Casting detect traps and doors on this level crashes the game. At least on my system (Debian + SDL). Taking stairs makes the problem go away.

crash_on_detect.zip

[spara]

With a virgin character even the dice are hidden in the weapon shop. That's one more use for town drunks. One hit and the dice reveal themselves.

[debo]

We're looking for a next comp. Too soon to make a rune-based ID one?

[Nomad]

Selecting randarts causes an immediate crash at the end of character generation. (Windows build.)

Edit: Also, starting equipment doesn't even show the base weapon dice/armour value, which means that you can't sell it: you get the "You have nothing I want" message until you've done some fighting to reveal those values.

[Nomad]

Average weapons don't start displaying the (+0,+0) until you've found and identified a weapon with magical plusses, which is a bit weird.

Also, at the moment there's no way to tell whether an item is fully identified or still has further unknown properties without looking at the Inspect screen. (So for instance if you haven't yet learned the rune for FA, then Leather Sandals of Free Action will just display as something like "Leather Sandals [1, +5]" and look exactly the same as a non-ego pair of sandals that you've fully ID'd.) I think anything that still has unknown runes should display an {unknown} or {unidentified} tag (or even just some kind of marker like an asterisk) to distinguish it.

[Nick]

Thanks for the feedback - I think it's too early for a comp yet, maybe next time. I'll try to get the crash bugs fixed and a new build out as soon as possible.

That (x0) on the bow is clearly silly, as is only being able to sell your dagger when you've hit someone with it.

The whole business of exactly what to show in the name is an interesting one. My choice was based on how I felt the character would experience the world, and in particular I'm thinking of the names of items as names the character has given them. So in a shop at the start there are weapons distinguishable by shape, and books you can see the title of, and jewellery which the shopkeeper tells you has magic properties, but who believes the shopkeeper? When you put on the ring and feel your ability to search increase, though - you can trust that, and so you say "I'll call this a ring of Searching".

So having something in the name to indicate unknown properties is not a bad idea, but I don't want to lose the sense of "I have no idea what's going on" from a starting character. Maybe append {magical} to weapons once you know dice, and armor once you know armor class, and to jewellery - when they still have unknown properties.

I'm not sure it all completely makes sense, but I think it maybe makes more sense than the current system.

[spara]

Unidentified stuff found from dungeon makes sense, but buying unidentified stuff from shops just feels silly. If some handwavium is needed, one can imagine a counter and shelves behind it. On shelves there are swords and daggers and spears and such. The shopkeeper is happy to tell you about the qualities of the items, but does not let you touch them or examine them more closely. Gold first, then you get the good.

[Nomad]

So having something in the name to indicate unknown properties is not a bad idea, but I don't want to lose the sense of "I have no idea what's going on" from a starting character.

Honestly, I think it would work just to slap {???} on everything until you've identified all its tags. The problem is that currently, the sense of "I have no idea what's going on" persists even once you've started to recognise stuff, because although you begin to auto-identify familiar items as you progress, you can't tell the ones that have been identified from the ones that haven't without manually inspecting everything.

As for shops, I feel they should at least show the names of items, even if the stats remain hidden. So you might be able to see that a shop is selling a weapon advertised as *Slay Evil*, but not be able to recognise what the exact stat bonuses and random special ability are unless you've seen the runes for those in the wild. (Or at the very least, if you're going to have unidentified items in shops, I think they should be tagged with the old average/magical/excellent/splendid distinctions to offer a bit of vague guidance.)

[Ingwe Ingweron]

What is the principled distinction between, say, knowing right from the start that a Staff in the magic shop is a Staff of Teleportation, but only knowing an amulet in that same magic shop is a "Bone amulet". Okay, books have titles that might be intelligible to @, perhaps even scrolls, but staves? Why does @ know that the potion in the alchemist shop is a potion of Resist Heat or in the temple is a potion of Cure Light Wounds? Do potions have "labels" immediately recognizable to @. If it is that the shopkeeper is believed about the qualities of these items, why is the shopkeeper not to be believed about the qualities of weapons, launchers, missiles, armor, rings, or amulets?

My feeling is let items in shops be advertised by the shopkeeper. If @ doesn't actually buy the item, @ won't "know" the rune for that item, but @ can believe the shopkeeper. E.g., a weapon in the temple can be advertised as a "Slay Evil" weapon. If @ buys the item, @ will learn the "slay evil" rune. Either that, or all the items (including books, scrolls, potions, ... everything) in shops should be unknown.

[Pete Mack]

Should you be able to instant pseudo by seeing that an object has(say) 8 runes on it? As in:
"It increases your stealth by 2. It provides resistance to acid and fire. It allows you to see invisible things. It has 4 additional runes." (Obviously it is a defender)

Also I agree with Ingwe: List the name of the object, but add {unseen} if you don't already know its runes. IDing Fearher Falling by wearing one from the store is just not that big a deal. Same with learning Slay Troll. It's objects with multiple runes that should be hard to know. Maybe add names for the runes (like Futharks or Quenya names?)

[ScaryMonster]

What if the shopkeeper has his own 'body of knowledge' and reliably id's those things that s/he recognizes? The scope of this 'body of knowledge' is either static or accrues. Perhaps this makes the Black Market a useful tool.

[Derakon]

Oh, awesome! Congrats on getting this out the door, Nick.

Re: initial identification, I kind of feel like anything that a veteran player would know should be automatically identified for the player, so e.g. the fact that daggers are 1d4, longswords are 2d5, soft leather armor gives 8 AC, etc. Those things aren't really "interesting" to have to identify. Characters should also be able to recognize that an item is non-magical, as it has no runes on it.