Finding a solution to ID

[Nomad]

I'd rather not subject myself to unresisted attacks (nexus, nether, chaos, etc.) just to hope to find a rune for a resist I know I'm going to need

I think you could have a combination of ID-by-use and eventual automatic 'learning' of runes; say if you wield an item for a certain period of time (modified by your character level/WIS stat or whatever) you automatically learn the runes on it, even if you haven't ID'd them by use yet.

There could even be class- and race-specific tweaks - dwarfs might learn all runes quickly, warriors be quick to learn slays, priests start out already knowing the runes for slay undead/demons, etc.

[Bogatyr]

I think you're assuming that squelch will be too aggressive?

I see it working as if I don't want a fire branded sword and squelch "fire brand", but if I find a slay evil sword with a fire brand, then it won't be squelched.

Any item that has a non-squelched runes would not be squelched, but any item that has only squelched runes would be.

This is not inferior to the current situation, but rather allows room to improve.

No. I'm assuming that in order to learn the "resist nexus" rune I must go search out a pack of nexus hounds and let them have at me and ruin my stats if I'm not maxed out yet. Doesn't sound fun, I'd much much much rather have current ID.

[Bogatyr]

I think you could have a combination of ID-by-use and eventual automatic 'learning' of runes; say if you wield an item for a certain period of time (modified by your character level/WIS stat or whatever) you automatically learn the runes on it, even if you haven't ID'd them by use yet.

There could even be class- and race-specific tweaks - dwarfs might learn all runes quickly, warriors be quick to learn slays, priests start out already knowing the runes for slay undead/demons, etc.

As long as we expand the home size by two or three times, depending on the time involved. Otherwise you risk losing a critical item without ever knowing it. Or you do: "*wield item*.....Rest 10000...Rest 10000....Rest 10000" doesn't sound more fun than "*identify*: *know everything instantly about item*".

[buzzkill]

I just skimmed the thread, so forgive me if this has already been suggested. Regarding rund based ID of +/- to hit, +/- to damage and +/- to AC (or anything else). Create a set of runes based upon binary numbers.

• a rune of +1
• a rune of +2
• a rune of +4
• a rune of +8
• and (egad) a rune of +16

A combination of one or more of these runes will be able to represent any modifier likely to be found in Angband. Repeat for negative modifiers. The first 3 runes will probably be learned rather quickly and cover a vast majority of weapons in the mid-early dungeon.

So, if you learned what a +1 and +2 rune is, then you would recognize a weapon that has them both as being +3. It's genius, [ducks].

[Estie]

I just skimmed the thread, so forgive me if this has already been suggested. Regarding rund based ID of +/- to hit, +/- to damage and +/- to AC (or anything else). Create a set of runes based upon binary numbers.

• a rune of +1
• a rune of +2
• a rune of +4
• a rune of +8
• and (egad) a rune of +16

A combination of one or more of these runes will be able to represent any modifier likely to be found in Angband. Repeat for negative modifiers. The first 3 runes will probably be learned rather quickly and cover a vast majority of weapons in the mid-early dungeon.

So, if you learned what a +1 and +2 rune is, then you would recognize a weapon that has them both as being +3. It's genius, [ducks].

That works, but sounds a bit complicated. It seems to me the granulation for +dam, +to hit, +AC is just finer than needed; I´d divide by 5, so Ringil +25 becomes Ringil +5. The early magic weapons and armors would all be +1. The highest damage enchantments I have seen on randarts were 40ish; so with the highest rune +10 (formerly +50), there should be enough room. Runes higher than +6 wont appear in the majority of games, but thats fine.

Formulas for combat can remain the same, except that all item bonuses are multiplied by 5 before insertion. Of course doing a similar re-granulation for spell buffs would be good if this is done.

[Estie]

Actually expanding on this:

The range of above "runes" is incidentally 1-6 (up to +10 possible, but rarely going past 6), which is also the range of typical pvals. So how about assigning a power value and a rune to each magical item.

To hit, to dam and AC bonuses are determined by this power value PV (avoiding the shortcut pval for it to not cause confusion); which of the 3 it applies to is determined by context (+th, +td) [+AC] as usual, there is no rune here.
In addition, magic items with other properties (like stat bonuses) will have a PV and a rune; for example, a ring of strength would have PV str. The rune needs to be learned as planned; the PV can either be known automatically, or also be learned, not sure which is better.

Naturally, PV would be weighted by depth. It might be possible to use this scheme, with only one weighing function, for all items. Sofar it includes to hit, to dam, AC, stats; infravision and searching should also be in range.

The big thing thats not included yet is speed. If we map speed values onto these PV values by halving them, it should result in familiar numbers. The highest "common" speed rings would be +6 (formerly +12), which is about what you typically find in the endgame, and highest possible +10 (corresponding to a ros +20).

In fact I very much like the distribution of speed values for rings. Most of the games you end up with something in a small range (+10 to +14 or so), but very rarely it can go higher (causing alarmed posts of disbelief from newbies when they find a ros +18 ).

So mold the probabilities for the PV function like the current speed ring function:
Mean value of +1,1 at dlvl 1, +4 or so at dlvl 50, and variance similar to speed rings at lvl 50, with a maximum of +10. This cap doesnt exist for speed rings, but may be useful to introduce if PVs have to be learned like runes.

I hope I have expressed my ideas clearly.

[Patashu]

Why do enchantment levels/plusses/pvals have to be runes themselves? It could just be a measure of the quality/craftsmanship of the rune.

[Estie]

Why do enchantment levels/plusses/pvals have to be runes themselves? It could just be a measure of the quality/craftsmanship of the rune.

It doesnt have to, I have included both possibilities. But if you dont treat them like runes, you will be able to see the enchantment of items on the floor from the start of the game. I think I want to find a dagger which turns out to be of westernesse +3 when picked up, rather than ´l`ooking to see a dagger of westernesse +3 in the next room, at least before I have identified westernesse.

Edit: clarification

[Carnivean]

No. I'm assuming that in order to learn the "resist nexus" rune I must go search out a pack of nexus hounds and let them have at me and ruin my stats if I'm not maxed out yet. Doesn't sound fun, I'd much much much rather have current ID.

I agree then, as that doesn't sound fun.

[Derakon]

Nexus stat-swap needs nerfing anyway; it should either not exist or should only do a random +1/-1 effect or something like that.

Combine that with my suggestion awhile back to have "vent" monsters which are basically stationary, fragile vortices for each of the various elements, and it should be fairly safe to figure out resistance runes.

[half]

Nexus stat-swap needs nerfing anyway; it should either not exist or should only do a random +1/-1 effect or something like that.

Someone should go into the code right now and just implement this change.

[AnonymousHero]

Someone should go into the code right now and just implement this change.

Fizzix already did in one of his branches, it's a pretty simple fix: Change S_SWAP_STAT to S_TELEPORT in src/monster/list-spell-effects.h (line 51, I think).

[Bogatyr]

Nexus stat-swap needs nerfing anyway; it should either not exist or should only do a random +1/-1 effect or something like that.

Combine that with my suggestion awhile back to have "vent" monsters which are basically stationary, fragile vortices for each of the various elements, and it should be fairly safe to figure out resistance runes.

Yes, sure, if there are easy-to-find spots that basically do not-life-threatening damage of known elements, then it would be more easily conceivable. But still, seems like a bit of a hack.

[Nick]

Someone should go into the code right now and just implement this change.

There are no gameplay changes until after the restructure

[buzzkill]

Fizzix already did in one of his branches, it's a pretty simple fix: Change S_SWAP_STAT to S_TELEPORT in src/monster/list-spell-effects.h (line 51, I think).

Angband is a jumbled mess of poor balance. That's part of it's (ahem) charm. +1/-1 seems like it would take all the bite out of nexus hounds and other breathers unless it triggered with each and every attack, and I don't think that's the case. Is nexus particularly nasty aside from the rare possibility of catastrophic stat swap???