NOT a statement of intent

[Nick]

Without persistent levels and/or a much tighter item generation allocation Angband will never be "balanced". Scumming is the elephant in the room that no one wants to address. The community doesn't even like discussing it lest the C-word be mentioned. Perhaps it shouldn't shouldn't be addressed in Traditional Angband. If that is the case, lets get it off the table so we can move on to other areas without worry of it.

All right, I'm taking this head-on.

This is not a bug, it's a feature.

The fact that scumming is possible is what sets Angband apart. You get the chance to scum (grind, whatever) for stuff, and then to work out for yourself whether that was satisfying play or not. I mean, this is an open source game that is easily modified - you don't even need to be able to code, you can completely nerf the game from the edit files. So setting serious rules that anyone with half a brain can get around in the blink of an eye is a bit precious.

Also, it's a single player game, and you're really only competing against yourself. When there is competition against other players, it usually comes down to turncount, which is hurt not helped by scumming.

On the other hand, there are massive advantages to trusting players and treating them like adults. Being a maintainer doesn't make me better than anyone else - what right do I have to be imposing moral judgments on people for the way they play?

So understand - this is not for me a problem that is too hard to address. It is just not a problem.

Also let me throw out a request for a persistent level birth option, a no-brainer IMO.

I'll put it on the list. I do think it would make an interesting mode of play - you only get 100 levels, but you get to do Nethack-style gear stashing. It isn't going to be high on the list, though.

Only Nick can start a thread with a list of ideas and then a week later trash those same ideas .

I may be inconsistent, but I'm consistently inconsistent

[LostTemplar]

This is not a bug, it's a feature.

Nick will be awesome Angband maintainer

[maboleth]

Nick will be awesome Angband maintainer

Indeed.

Which is exactly the point of no-selling: to keep the player in the dungeon as much as possible. But I understand that not everyone enjoys that style of play.

Of course.
But I'd rather see a bit more developed town, so you'd want to come to the surface more. Town hasn't been touched for ages...

[LostTemplar]

Make a town as in Unangband. Add trees and moats.

[Nick]

But I'd rather see a bit more developed town, so you'd want to come to the surface more. Town hasn't been touched for ages...

Good idea.

Make a town as in Unangband. Add trees and moats.

That's a good thought. In fact, town would be a really good place to add experimental new terrain if we were thinking of going in that direction.

[taptap]

In my opinion the approach to grinding is a question of responsibility in game design in an unabashedly paternalistic sense. There is an awful amount of people who mainly play to kill time and to them sheer length or even unlimited playing very much looks like the main feature of a game, even if it has nothing else to offer. I believe a game should last as long as it can offer some nourishment and then it should end.

I was playing in / programming for a MUD back in the time and we had players who put in hundreds of days of playing time within a few years (not counting idle time) and the same mechanisms were later exploited endlessly in MMORPGS to get players hooked and p(l)aying.

Now roguelikes are much more solitary, but you get the point. Say, if you take out the equipment / skill progression out of Angband, how many floors could you fill with interesting play?

[Nick]

In my opinion the approach to grinding is a question of responsibility in game design in an unabashedly paternalistic sense. There is an awful amount of people who mainly play to kill time and to them sheer length or even unlimited playing very much looks like the main feature of a game, even if it has nothing else to offer. I believe a game should last as long as it can offer some nourishment and then it should end.

I was playing in / programming for a MUD back in the time and we had players who put in hundreds of days of playing time within a few years (not counting idle time) and the same mechanisms were later exploited endlessly in MMORPGS to get players hooked and p(l)aying.

This is an interesting point, but on the whole I don't think it applies very well to Angband. I think that people who are looking to kill time will usually find a way; surely it is better that they kill time with Angband (or Windows solitaire) than a paying MMORPG or a gambling site?

While I can see where you're coming from with the responsibility issue, I (a) am really uncomfortable with being paternalistic, even for good reasons and (b) think it is probably counter-productive. I'd rather be giving people the chance to learn to moderate their own behaviour than trying to indirectly moderate it for them.

Now roguelikes are much more solitary, but you get the point. Say, if you take out the equipment / skill progression out of Angband, how many floors could you fill with interesting play?

Some would argue that Sil has answered that question

Interesting is kind of relative, though. Which is more interesting, ten levels of steadily increasing difficulty, or nine levels of sameness and then a gut-wrenchingly terrifying greater vault? IMHO the answer will vary from person to person and time to time.

[Therem Harth]

@taptap: Interesting point, and one that should probably get more consideration (paternalistic or otherwise).

However, I'd (as politely as possible) point out that Angband is just about the least nourishing RPG ever. There is no plot. There are no characters. You just borrow through a randomized dungeon, killing stuff or running away, until you reach the end; then you quit (or, as the game itself so nicely puts it, "commit suicide"). It's existential nausea in a game.

What does it teach, or otherwise provide the player?
- Typing (maybe, sometimes, with varying efficacy)
- Tactics and strategies, mostly limited to Angband itself
- Entertainment (sometimes)
- How to be a better Angband player

That's not a hell of a lot. And really, I don't think a lot can be done about it, even by reducing contents. We've seen that already with Sil; it just makes people play more of it to compensate.

All that being said, I think there is hope. When I was a (dorky) teenager, I played way too much Angband; these days I don't play nearly as much, even when I have the time, and despite maintaining a variant that's tailored to my preferences. People may develop healthier habits as they mature.

But you're right - kids getting hooked on so-and-so fun timewasting game is definitely still a problem, even if they grow out of it. And it would be nice to have some measures against that.

[LostTemplar]

What does it teach, or otherwise provide the player?

Also it trains attention, patience, serenity and accuracy.

And as Nick mentioned it

gives people the chance to learn to moderate their own behaviour