NOT a statement of intent

[Magnate]

I suppose my view is that a slow grind should be the 'standard' way of playing V, and that forced diving should be an off-by-default option (or set of options). However, I think that relatively new players should be able to dive deep if they want to, and (with skill and luck) diving strategies should be rewarding.

I don't think this is very far from the status quo of V.

Some corollaries:

• if the Borg can't routinely win V, there's something wrong
• if players aren't posting spectacular speedruns, there's something wrong
• it should be reasonably easy to find some way of descending - stairs, shafts or e.g. Deep Descent scrolls
• the stealth minigame should be interesting

A.

Who are you and what have you done with Antoine?

(I never agree with him, yet this is all gold.)

[Antoine]

Dunno what you're on about Magnate, you normally agree with me, I could find any number of examples

A.

[debo]

Metadisagreement

[Nick]

Thanks everyone for the excellent posts in the last 12 hours. It's helping a lot.

[Antoine]

More thoughts on facilitating diving without preventing grinding... Reduce dungeon to 50 levels corresponding to existing 2, 4, 6... 100. When a character descends to a new maxdepth that exceeds their clvl, give them a random stat boost.

Also, adopt semi-connected stairs to prevent stairscumming.

A.

[LostTemplar]

When a character descends to a new maxdepth that exceeds their clvl, give them a random stat boost.

Diving is already dominating and most effective way to play Angband, why encourage it more, I would like bonuses for cleaning levels instead (maybe just for uniques, e.g. kill all uniques on the level and get bonus)

[Nomad]

Also, adopt semi-connected stairs to prevent stairscumming.

I think "connected stairs when you go down, stairs disappear behind you when you go up" seems fair and reasonable to me. The option to retreat from descending into horrible danger still remains, but you can't immediately 'reroll' for a more favourable level and keep trying again.

(Of course, there's always a chance that going up will lead you into horrible danger too, but that's just your bad luck...)

[Carnivean]

• Good players must be challenged
• Good players shouldn't be bored
• New players shouldn't be scared/frustrated away
• Slow players should have a game they can enjoy
• Fast players should have a game they can enjoy

I think the conclusion I draw from that is that the game should sense the speed that you're diving at and try to repel you from doing so (like the forceshields from Dune). Slow play encourages you to speed up, fast play challenges you to slow down.

Maybe the monsters should be as out of depth as the player?

[PowerWyrm]

More thoughts on facilitating diving without preventing grinding... Reduce dungeon to 50 levels corresponding to existing 2, 4, 6... 100. When a character descends to a new maxdepth that exceeds their clvl, give them a random stat boost.

Also, adopt semi-connected stairs to prevent stairscumming.

A.

I think I saw an Angband playthrough once with a slightly altered code that was allowing downstairs to go two levels down instead of one. That could be an option to help people speed their game.

[MattB]

I think I saw an Angband playthrough once with a slightly altered code that was allowing downstairs to go two levels down instead of one. That could be an option to help people speed their game.

I like this - lets you descend faster, but doesn't force you to do so.

However, I don't really understand the problem. I play slowly, maybe 2 million turns for a (very rare) win. But in doing so I understand that I am actually decreasing my chances of a win. By playing slowly I double my chances of dying (twice as many monster encounters, twice as many do-or-die 5% fail escapes etc.), without much increasing my chances of success as equipment is gained by the level you're at, not time spent. By playing faster I would more or less get just as good equipment at any given dungeon level. The only exception to this is statgain. The more levels you play in the dlvl30's the safer your character will be when he ventures into the 40's.

So maybe the problem is in the statgain mechanic, and not with anything else?

[fizzix]

I think I saw an Angband playthrough once with a slightly altered code that was allowing downstairs to go two levels down instead of one. That could be an option to help people speed their game.

That was me, blatantly stolen from Mist. The code is pretty simple.

[half]

However, I don't really understand the problem. I play slowly, maybe 2 million turns for a (very rare) win. But in doing so I understand that I am actually decreasing my chances of a win.

I don't think there is widespread agreement on this. There are really two questions:

1) is slow cautious play better in theory? (looking at considerations like your one about having to face smaller risks more times)
2) is slow cautious play better in practice? (including things like fact that it can make you lose concentration)

[In both cases I'm using 'better' to mean 'makes you more likely to win']

My guess is that slow play is better in theory but am not sure about in practice. If slow play were bad in both senses then the grinding/scumming problem wouldn't be a case of optimal play being different from fun play, but just a problem of how to stop people doing what is both boring and suboptimal which is quite different.

[LostTemplar]

1) is slow cautious play better in theory? (looking at considerations like your one about having to face smaller risks more times)
2) is slow cautious play better in practice? (including things like fact that it can make you lose concentration)

No and no, but it takes time and experience to understand this. To a newbie it may seem that 1) is true and even that 2) is true sometimes.

Slow cautious play is doable but it is worse then fast cautious play.

[MattB]

No and no, but it takes time and experience to understand this. To a newbie it may seem that 1) is true and even that 2) is true sometimes.

Slow cautious play is doable but it is worse then fast cautious play.

And where does that leave me?
I agree that 1 and 2 are both false, yet I still play slowly!

[LostTemplar]

And where does that leave me?
I agree that 1 and 2 are both false, yet I still play slowly!

It is a matter of taste, e.g. I often like to clear greater vaults in lower levels, or themed levels in FAangband, with full knowledge that it is a bad play, just for fun, or for extra chellenge or just for role play.