Few ideas fo 50' dungeon level

[eMeM]

I don't want Angband to become solved game but as far as things stand this is only thing thats make it unsolved. It's easier to change this one thing and be at least consequent (not english native.. don't know right word to put here) in game design than change multiple things to make it hard thougout all game.

Want a poker analogy?
On 1st level you are holding AA with a set on flop and no flush or straight possible. You're big favorite against anything but you are not guaranteed to win.
Later lavels are like having a nut flush on river. You know you have won 100% and only way to lose is to fold it yourself.

[Derakon]

I posit that if you "know you have won" Angband on later levels then you are playing the game wrong. Embrace chance, accept that sometimes you will lose due to factors outside your control. It makes the game more interesting, not less. If you can do that, then the slight chance that you will get killed on level 1 will not be a problem.

[Oramin]

Did you read that long thread I started? Here's a quote from the first post:

5. I'm currently playing a Dwarf Priest since a bunch of posts indicated that was a popular character. The previous one was a level 35 High Elf Ranger with over 500 HP that was insta-killed by a random respawn of an Ancient Multi-Hued Dragon (Poison Breath) on level 35 before I had a chance to react. Note that I hadn't even *seen* an Ancient Dragon prior to that point and that the character had a high Stealth which was made useless by the out of depth respawn automatically being awake.

(Yes, I could have been constantly recasting Resistance since I hadn't found a source of Poison Resistance, but I wasn't expecting such a low probability sequence of events.)

I was playing the odds and got squished. Angband isn't like a single hand of poker, it is more like a bunch of hands. Every once in a while, you get really unlucky. Similarly, every once in a while you get really lucky (such as finding the One Ring).

I don't have a problem with tweaking the game to discourage Mages from running to melee monsters on L1 of the dungeon while still being L1, but death is always a risk. There is a small possibility of getting really unlucky on level 1 and getting into a no-win scenario; Kirk might want to reprogram it but I have no problems with the odds.

[eMeM]

I posit that if you "know you have won" Angband on later levels then you are playing the game wrong. Embrace chance, accept that sometimes you will lose due to factors outside your control. It makes the game more interesting, not less. If you can do that, then the slight chance that you will get killed on level 1 will not be a problem.

This is not Sil. There is no wrong way of playing. I never said that I'm not satisfied with playing it safely. I never said I don't like playing it risky. I like freedom, Angband allows lot of freedom.

I think it's time to stop discussion on this topic as Angband conservative community doesn't want slight changes.

[eMeM]

Using wizard mode I made few stats, 30 runs on 50' and 30 runs on 2500'

Average number of monsters on 50': 28
Average % OOD monsters on 50': 8.7%
Max % OOD monsters on 50': 35% !!!

Average number of monsters on 2500': 155
Average % OOD monsters on 2500': 0.5%
Max % OOD monsters on 2500': 4%

[Zyphyr]

I think I'm repeating myself. Hobbit mage (7HP) with disconnected stairs.

Disconnected Stairs is an option. Experienced players may chose it for the extra challenge. New players shouldn't be changing options, and if they do they deserve an additional deaths it may cause.

[Feloniousmonk]

Getting killed on DL1 costs you, what, five minutes of gameplay? Reroll a new character and do it over again. It's not worth the time you're spending arguing about it.

Pretty much this. Dying on DL 70 is way, way more aggravating than dying 2 minutes into the game. If you're having that much trouble on level one I suggest you look at your playing style.

[Timo Pietilä]

I think I'm repeating myself. Hobbit mage (7HP) with disconnected stairs. I have seen rooms with two packs of jackals. You can start surrounded by all of them.

Can, but have you actually? As very first clvl? I have played this game for about two decades now and I don't recall that happening me ever. If I'm surrounded by pack monsters in beginning of the level my first reaction is to bail out of that situation with phase door if I don't have anything better to use. Jackals and cave spiders start asleep and don't have impossible low alertness rating, in fact none of the dlvl 50' group monsters are "ever vigilant", so you can quite easily escape with hobbit mage. H-Troll warrior would have bigger trouble, but OTOH H-Troll warrior probably could actually fight them.

Worst case I can think of is to get both Grip and Fang at starting room with you, but that too has never happened to me.

[Oramin]

Right, if there were an indication that no-win scenarios happened a reasonable percentage of the time on L1 of the dungeon under the default options then I'd be in favor of a fix.

The fact that I've never seen such a position and that it needs to have an option set which makes the game harder for it to occur tells me it isn't something that needs to be dealt with.

[eMeM]

If you're having that much trouble on level one I suggest you look at your playing style.

I have posted stats with number of OOD monsters which clearly states that 50' level is much harder than anything else in the game. Is it enough to say I'm poor player? Man, please don't use this topic for personal attacks just because you don't agree with me.

[Nick]

I have posted stats with number of OOD monsters which clearly states that 50' level is much harder than anything else in the game.

By this argument, level 98 is the easiest level in the game, because everything is from at least 3 dungeon levels less. How about we just swap the positions of the two? Problem solved!

[eMeM]

Right, if there were an indication that no-win scenarios happened a reasonable percentage of the time on L1 of the dungeon under the default options then I'd be in favor of a fix.

With connected stairs there's no such thing as no-win scenario. We can always run away before any monster moves if we don't like generated level. And play on 50' depth until we get 50 level char with good gear. Nothing force us to attack monsters that can harm us, nothing force us to play in dangerous environment, nothing forces us to take a step out from being safe on stairs. This might take long but game allows that. I would say connected stairs makes Angband solved, of course in real life no one wants to play that way even borg is programmed to take more risks.

[eMeM]

By this argument, level 98 is the easiest level in the game, because everything is from at least 3 dungeon levels less. How about we just swap the positions of the two? Problem solved!

And that's what it is, 98,99,100 and so on are very easy levels. IMO written many times here, there is no way to die there unless someone makes serious mistake (doesn't heal/doesn't destruct/doesn't banish/doesn't teleport other/ doesn't stay out of LOS in danger).

In ZAngband there were few over 100 level monsters

[Timo Pietilä]

I have posted stats with number of OOD monsters which clearly states that 50' level is much harder than anything else in the game. Is it enough to say I'm poor player? Man, please don't use this topic for personal attacks just because you don't agree with me.

Really? I haven't seen any posts with stats that could be used to make such conclusion. The only post with stats I saw did show that dlvl 1 had a lot less monsters than later levels which means that it is easiest.

[eMeM]

Just recently we've had a change with monster pit size. There are lot of monsters that can't do any harm to our hero. And other can't do either, we just have to face them one by one not all at same time. I don't think numbers make deeper dungeon levels any harder because by then we can kill any number of them with 0% risk of death.