Few ideas fo 50' dungeon level

[Nick]

I'm also of the camp that thinks that DL1 doesn't need to made any easier.

So am I. But, to be frank, you're also in the camp that thinks that nothing needs to be made any easier, and in fact it's too easy already, and you kids get everything too easy

[Oramin]

The problem is that new players will pick mages, and then wonder why they can't clear a single room without having to run away and rest. Except they won't actually run away and rest; they'll cast their two magic missiles and then wade into combat, start swinging, and get their faces reduced to paste.

You know how the different classes and races have bits of text like "Identifies mushrooms" and "Prefers blunt weapons"? The mage class should have "Is initially awful" or something. I think so long as expectations are set properly, we'll be okay.

In other words they should be played like AD&D mages and not Diablo II mages.

How about:

"Melee not recommeded for beginning mages."

[MattB]

"Easily killed when sharp sticks are being waved about."?

[Oramin]

Or you could give them a sling instead of a dagger as a starting weapon. No melee weapon reduces the incentive to melee.

[ekolis]

Or you could give them a sling instead of a dagger as a starting weapon. No melee weapon reduces the incentive to melee.

Unless they're ultra noobs and wonder why it's impossible to kill anything...

[eMeM]

This doesn't make even a little bit of sense. 50' losses in Angband are equivalent to Fool's Mate, with some random bad luck added in. If you can't learn your way out of Fool's Mate, you will never win in chess, either.

I was pretty sure someone will bring this argument. Fool's Mate is bad play not bad luck. Chess is deterministic game, the only luck factor is when you toss who starts the game. There is no way to make Angband deterministic but we can make sure bad luck will not kill straight away our 1st level hero. The game should be harder later, not on first few moves in the dungeon. We don't gain anything for killing starting adventurer.

The reason I got into thinking it should be changed was few months ago when I watched borg (3.2.0) and then I analysed some deaths weren't result of awful mistake. I think experienced Angband player playing to 100% of his ability will never die later on (too easy to avoid death risk), but still may struggle on game start if he gets unlucky (unlikely but if it happens there is no way to avoid it at all).

[Timo Pietilä]

I think experienced Angband player playing to 100% of his ability will never die later on (too easy to avoid death risk), but still may struggle on game start if he gets unlucky (unlikely but if it happens there is no way to avoid it at all).

Just out of curiosity, what kind of event would it require to get unavoidably killed at first dlevel? Seriously, I can't think of any realistic way to get char killed beyond bad choices.

[MattB]

clvl1, low hp class/race combo, pit trap?
(not sure if you can get pits on dlvl1 though)

[fizzix]

clvl1, low hp class/race combo, pit trap?
(not sure if you can get pits on dlvl1 though)

From trap.c, the only traps on the first dungeon level are teleport and confuse

on dlevel 2 you can find a bunch more traps including pits, trap doors, fire, acid, slow, blind, poison and sleep.

on dlevel 3, summoning traps appear.

the 3 stat-dart traps only appear on level 6 and deeper.

Personally, I think it's a bit backwards, stat-darts are ok early and some of the nasty status effect traps should be deeper, but I don't see a problem with level 1.

[eMeM]

I think I'm repeating myself. Hobbit mage (7HP) with disconnected stairs. I have seen rooms with two packs of jackals. You can start surrounded by all of them. If corridor is on the other side of the room you are in big trouble. Sometimes there might be no corridors, you have to find secret door first. With OOD monster things get worse. Apprentices and acolytes are deadly because they have ranged attacks and usualy appear in groups. You won't run away from Cave spiders (+10 speed). Soldiers can kill in one hit. Some may say that shopping helps to avoid most of problems still you might get unlucky and potions, phase door, ranged attack won't be enough to survive if you get in bad starting position. And I think starting equipment/inventory should be enough to survive on 50' without going to shop.

It's easy to test it yourself in wizard mode (with connected stairs option to reload levels):
Start new char
CTRL+A and u - monster list
CTRL+A and w - enlightment

[Starhawk]

I think I'm repeating myself.

Getting killed on DL1 costs you, what, five minutes of gameplay? Reroll a new character and do it over again. It's not worth the time you're spending arguing about it.

[fizzix]

I think I'm repeating myself. Hobbit mage (7HP) with disconnected stairs. I have seen rooms with two packs of jackals.

Disconnected stairs is an extra challenge, using it means you'll wind up in situations like that. If it bothers you, play with connected stairs and only use them if the starting room is too dangerous.

Regardless, jackal groups are smaller in head. Yes, you can still die. You can die winding up on dlevel 2 amidst a group of novice adventurers or cave spiders. You can die by landing in a dark room full of gravity hounds at dlevel 50. When you play disconnected stairs, this is a risk you take.

[eMeM]

On 50 dlvl you should have ESP if you don't play risky fast diving game. You should have resistances, you should have more hit points and it's possible to have it all because game doesn't force us to go deeper. We can stay on easy levels as long as we want, destroy easy monsters until we get 50 level and gear we need. Nothing can kill you in one move if you don't make mistakes and you have enough of patience. Deeper on you have lot of time to prepare yourself with detection, teleport other, teleport level, *destruction*, benishment, healings, speed. There is no way to prepare our @ as good for 1st level.

Getting killed on DL1 costs you, what, five minutes of gameplay? Reroll a new character and do it over again. It's not worth the time you're spending arguing about it.

This is like save scumming, loading until I don't get unlucky even if it's less than 1% possible. There must have been some reason why other instadeaths were thrown out of Angband (we always get first move on new level). These are the same reasons why this one should be out too.

This is an issue for me because good player will never die in late game but it's much easier to die at game start. For me this means something is not right with game concept. No one else see it as a problem so I have to leave it for myself.

[Philip]

On 50 dlvl you should have ESP if you don't play risky fast diving game. You should have resistances, you should have more hit points and it's possible to have it all because game doesn't force us to go deeper. We can stay on easy levels as long as we want, destroy easy monsters until we get 50 level and gear we need. Nothing can kill you in one move if you don't make mistakes and you have enough of patience. Deeper on you have lot of time to prepare yourself with detection, teleport other, teleport level, *destruction*, benishment, healings, speed. There is no way to prepare our @ as good for 1st level.

Well, if nothing can kill you later on, the game is boring, and bad. There should always be some risk of an Ancient dragon on dlvl 20 if you stay around too long. You should be able to face or run away from challenges.
There is an inherent problem in a game in which you can get a +13 speed ring(dlvl 80 object IIRC) from a stone troll on dlvl 25(happened to me once) yet not get even a dlvl 30 monster outside a vault.

This is like save scumming, loading until I don't get unlucky even if it's less than 1% possible. There must have been some reason why other instadeaths were thrown out of Angband (we always get first move on new level). These are the same reasons why this one should be out too.

The reason was people didn't like wasting a couple days on a character, then dying unavoidably. This something of an avoidable instadeath. If you teach players that escaping and healing is key, and tell them to grab some before going down, you can quite possibly get out of a situation with two packs of jackals. Practically all rooms are lighted on dlvl 1, so phasing and running for a corridor and then downing a CLW to prevent them from following you in could work. Perhaps that could be made part of an eventual tutorial.

This is an issue for me because good player will never die in late game but it's much easier to die at game start. For me this means something is not right with game concept. No one else see it as a problem so I have to leave it for myself.

If good players never die in the late game, why would they even play? I doubt they die much more in the early game, which is more predictable. At the start of the game, dlvl 1 might kill you if you chance on a novice warrior. Loss of 5 mins. Unavoidable death happens in 0.1% of cases, the others tend to be poor judgement or voluntary restrictions.

If you teach players to survive early, they stand more of a chance later on. A good tutorial, putting players in situations they will have to extract themselves from later, will solve the issue.

[Oramin]

eMem:

As somebody who has over 150 chess books and solves chess positions most days, let me be blunt: Angband ain't chess.

Angband is a gambling game where skill makes a difference. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. And, just as in poker, sometimes you just can't win because the other guy gets dealt better cards and is a competent player.


Here, contemplate the following:

Jean-Luc Picard: It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life.