Few ideas fo 50' dungeon level

[OOD Town drunk]

By examining the items in the stores with the 'l'ook command; flasks are specifically described as doing good damage when thrown.

In store the command is e(x)amine.

[MattB]

Maybe L1 could be on 'perma-tutorial-mode', with extra help / prompts / explanations of what's going on?

A.

I actually quite like this idea. Agreed that this could be annoying for veterans, so would it be possible to force a down staircase next to the one you use to arrive in dl1 so you could carry on your merry way if you so desire?

[Feloniousmonk]

I've been killed many times in town before even setting foot in the dungeon. Which is especially annoying after buying all my gear...

Perhaps we should not allow anyone in town to hurt you. Maybe they should just give you words of encouragement and praise.

[fizzix]

I've been killed many times in town before even setting foot in the dungeon. Which is especially annoying after buying all my gear...

Perhaps we should not allow anyone in town to hurt you. Maybe they should just give you words of encouragement and praise.

I think they should heckle you, the harshness of which becomes less as you gain levels. By level 40 or so they start bowing.

[Derakon]

By level 40 all of the townsfolk are futilely trying to run away, assuming they even wake up before the almighty adventurer, irritated at his running being disturbed, hits the "target nearest creature and destroy" keymap.

[MattB]

By level 40 all of the townsfolk are futilely trying to run away, assuming they even wake up before the almighty adventurer, irritated at his running being disturbed, hits the "target nearest creature and destroy" keymap.

One of my little achievements I check off as my character progresses (somewhere between finding a lantern and killing Morgoth) is when my monster memory tells me I have exterminated 100 merchants. I don't know why - it's not like I need their money after the first twenty or so. They just annoy me, flaunting their wealth like that. I figure that if they don't actually yearn for summary execution, they shouldn't walk around at night carrying a torch. It's their fault really...

[Pete Mack]

Don't tell me you never met Farmer's dogs on 50'. They are lethal for 7HP character. Sometimes you can find multiple Apprentices or Scouts both with ranged attack or even Smeagol. I have just seen room with two packs of jackals. There is no way hobbit mage could survive their attack..

Ummm. Fang and Grip: so what? I've killed them any number of times at cl 1. As for Jackals: you can just run away. They will not follow you. Apprentices and scouts are OoD. This is sufficiently rare that if you get really bad luck you can restart and get back to where you were in a few minutes.

You also mentioned poisoning/summoning traps at 50'.

a. They no longer are possible.
b. So what? They are only an issue if you spend more than a few minutes at 50'.

[eMeM]

Restarting a game at 1st level is like having unlimited lives. Nothing different from save scumming = cheating. Would chess be regarded as one of the best games of all times if bad luck allowed to lose no matter how good you play?

We don't have instadeath in late and mid game, there shouldn't be in beginning too. Even for ironman players without shopping and with disconnected stairs.

[Timo Pietilä]

Restarting a game at 1st level is like having unlimited lives. Nothing different from save scumming = cheating. Would chess be regarded as one of the best games of all times if bad luck allowed to lose no matter how good you play?

We don't have instadeath in late and mid game, there shouldn't be in beginning too. Even for ironman players without shopping and with disconnected stairs.

There is no instadeath in beginning either. Granted chance of being surprised is higher, but I have survived one game where I forgot to buy torches with disconnected stairs. Took me a while finding stairs that were in lit room instead of dark corridor. Game is actually quite forgiving in early levels, it just takes a bit time to realize which monsters are really deadly.

[Pete Mack]

Restarting a game at 1st level is like having unlimited lives. Nothing different from save scumming = cheating. Would chess be regarded as one of the best games of all times if bad luck allowed to lose no matter how good you play?

We don't have instadeath in late and mid game, there shouldn't be in beginning too. Even for ironman players without shopping and with disconnected stairs.

This doesn't make even a little bit of sense. 50' losses in Angband are equivalent to Fool's Mate, with some random bad luck added in. If you can't learn your way out of Fool's Mate, you will never win in chess, either.

[buzzkill]

By examining the items in the stores with the 'l'ook command; flasks are specifically described as doing good damage when thrown.

Examining an item in a store to learn it's specific properties isn't everyday newb territory. Maybe one would examine an oddly named scroll or potion, but a flask of oil?

I was never a fan of flasks of oil as missile weapons, but if they are expected to be used as such than why not start every character out with one. Having it in he inventory will make it much more likely to be utilized and then repurchased. I'm also of the camp that thinks that DL1 doesn't need to made any easier. If you die, then it's only a 5 minute investment lost. If you've invested any more time than that, you're doing something terribly wrong.

[Derakon]

I don't know that flasks are expected to be used as missile weapons; I haven't bothered doing so in ages. But it's a valid tactic. I also don't think I've ever seen Grip/Fang on level 1, and seeing novice adventurers on level 1 is incredibly rare though it does sometimes happen.

I do think eMeM has a point that we don't want new players to get stomped into the ground as soon as they start the game. However, at the same time new players do need to learn that the dungeon is not a safe place (nor is the town, for that matter) and they need to be careful. I honestly think that the current system is good: level 1 is almost always "safe", while level 2 can easily kill you if you don't take care. The only thing that needs fixing, and which I believe is now fixed in the nightlies, is the large groups of novice adventurers showing up on level 2 -- they should be smaller.

Well, that, and the birth system needs to mark mages as being incredibly fragile and hard to start with. Newbies should not play mages unless they have a high tolerance for death.

[scud]

I also don't think I've ever seen Grip/Fang on level 1

Spooky! In glorious screwed up OSXLion-o-Color...



Furthermore I got set down right beside him having failed to disarm a teleport trap.

[fizzix]

Well, that, and the birth system needs to mark mages as being incredibly fragile and hard to start with. Newbies should not play mages unless they have a high tolerance for death.

Honestly it's a trade-off. Low level mages are in a sense tactically easy to play because when all you have is a hammer (or magic missile...)

[Derakon]

Honestly it's a trade-off. Low level mages are in a sense tactically easy to play because when all you have is a hammer (or magic missile...)

The problem is that new players will pick mages, and then wonder why they can't clear a single room without having to run away and rest. Except they won't actually run away and rest; they'll cast their two magic missiles and then wade into combat, start swinging, and get their faces reduced to paste.

You know how the different classes and races have bits of text like "Identifies mushrooms" and "Prefers blunt weapons"? The mage class should have "Is initially awful" or something. I think so long as expectations are set properly, we'll be okay.