Moments of "whoa"

[Monkey Face]

It's interesting that Derakon and Timo both make some points that fit in nicely with Doomcaller and my first win. When unique scumming at the end, I was using Doomcaller along with a bunch of Runes of Protection to bash everything in sight. I already had ESP with Narya along with aggravation from Eol (which gave "double" fire immunity, but did not find any other mage friendly gloves after I found Narya).

However, when it came time to fight Morgoth, I left Doomcaller at home in favor of Anguirel as my primary (with Turmil, Taratol, and Anduril as swaps). Against Morgoth I was using Mana Storm, Mass Banishment, Phase Door, Restore Mana, and Healing, so speed became more important than power.

(Sorry to beat you to Doomcaller, Derakon, but I've still never found Ringil.)

[Derakon]

Doubtful; Sting only has 1d7 dice, so its slays aren't anywhere near as powerful. Going from 1d7 to 2d7 is an increase in average damage of 4; going from 6d5 to 12d5 is an increase of 18. So when slays apply, Doomcaller gets an extra 27 damage/blow over Sting (counting the disparity in pluses), and that's before you consider Doomcaller's significantly better crits (due to it being heavier).

Sting's +2 blows make it unusually competitive for a small weapon, but not enough to make it endgame-quality in my experience.

[Oramin]

Just to nitpick, 5.8 max for Warrior with BoC.

Incidentally, couldn't a (+15,+15) Sting with max stats and top level gear do better than Doomcaller?

(Just a guess, haven't run the numbers)

[Timo Pietilä]

Er...is that good?

The only time my melee-damage in all my years of playing angband got nearly 1000 points/ turn against evil was with Doomcaller (warrior gets 6 blows with BoC, but not with MoD or SoS, so even Deathwreaker lost to that).

Only time I had a rivaling weapon to that was with lucky HA SoS with extra dice (9d4) and +24 to_dam with Priest, but priests are nowhere as good with melee, so couldn't quite match that damage.

It's good weapon. Aggravation makes it difficult to use as main weapon, but very good swap for quick dispatching nasty dragons/demons. It also has ESP so it might be very useful if you have multiple aggravating items and want to use it as main weapon.

[MattB]

Maybe Arya's (non-cheating) daughter will find it as well!
Or, more likely, not.

Alternatively she could read a deep descent scroll on dlvl1 and get killed by Bullroarer on dlvl6.

Which just happened.

[MattB]

All good points and well made.

I certainly would have (I)nspected it, but I may have missed the cold brand which would have made a difference (I had taken wine).

As for Morgoth, I was kind of counting on finding Pain at some point. It didn't really occur to me that I wouldn't (which is a bit of a schoolboy error).

As for stats, I was wearing my first ever set of PDSM (albeit on a cheating character), so slots weren't really a problem. (I also had Dorlomin and was a high elf).

But when it comes down to it, you're quite right - I should have at least carried it back. I'm really trying not to get carried away with filling my home with artifacts at the expense of carrying back useful consumables (which is something I still keep on doing). I try to remind myself that in the dungeon one extra scroll of banishment (let alone a potion of *healing*) in the backpack is worth a million extra artifacts in the home. That's probably why I dropped it in the end.

Still, like I say, you're right of course. Maybe Arya's (non-cheating) daughter will find it as well!
Or, more likely, not.

[Derakon]

Oromë is a nice weapon, no doubt, but it almost certainly doesn't do as much damage as Doomcaller does. 4d6 vs. 6d5 is a minor difference, but Oromë crucially doesn't have Slay Evil and its firebrand is going to be ineffective against many late-game enemies; meanwhile, Doomcaller has a cold brand (roughly equivalent utility, slightly worse against undead), Slay Evil, and Slay Demon / Kill Dragon. So against many lategame enemies, and especially against Sauron and Morgoth, it's vastly more powerful. Never mind that it has +28 to-dam vs. Oromë's +15.

In any event, the 'I'nspect screen should have told you which one deals more damage.

Aggravation is a non-issue for the final fights, though it can be annoying right up until then. You can of course use it as a swap weapon though. The -50 AC isn't great, but overall you'll take less damage with Doomcaller simply because your enemies will die that much faster. Doomcaller's ESP/SI/FA/basic resistances can also free up other equipment slots that were tied down covering essentials.

Oromës +4 speed is probably not going to make up the damage gap. Of course if you needed it to avoid being double-moved, then that's a different story, but that probably wasn't the case. Sure, going from +0 to +4 means a 40% increase in your damage output and a 40% reduction in damage received, but going from +20 to +24 is much less significant.

Really the only reason I'd use Oromë in the endgame is if I wasn't planning to melee Sauron/Morgoth and I had no need of Doomcaller's other side benefits. In that case, we're just talking about a stat stick that gives redundant abilities vs. one that gives +4 INT/Speed, and that's not really a hard choice. But if I was still stuck with a Helm of Telepathy, say, but had a juicy helm in my home waiting to be used, then Doomcaller would go right in.

[Oramin]

Actually the aggravation is worth it.

I was using Gothmog (whip) in my current game. I would dig tunnels and then equip Gothmog to wake up the monsters and bring them into the tunnel. Made killing Ancalagon a breeze (and the Fire Immunity plus *Slay Dragon* didn't hurt).

[MattB]

Dude, you found Doomcaller? I don't think I've ever seen that weapon in all my years of playing. That's pretty dang lucky, even if you don't decide to use it.

Er...is that good?

I think I figured it didn't do much more damage than Orome, which I was using, once you added in Orome's brand and +4spd. So the -50AC and aggravation just wasn't worth it.

I actually used Orome from when I found it (dlvl40) right up until the final battle when I swapped it out for Eowyn for slay evil (and then Grond, naturally).

[I should add that this was a save-scummed game as she was my first High Elf and my first Ranger, so not a win. Died a bit, learnt a lot. Now time to do it properly!]

[Derakon]

Dude, you found Doomcaller? I don't think I've ever seen that weapon in all my years of playing. That's pretty dang lucky, even if you don't decide to use it.

[MattB]

And was the reward worth it?...


...On balance, probably not.

[MattB]

Aaaargh! Massive vault!
(I assume this is the famed 'Reward Is Worth It' vault).

[Timo Pietilä]

throw it at the next gray mushroom patch you find; it probably won't break.

I have a vague memory of unrelated thread that made me peek item features and if I recall correctly melee-weapon breakage chance is zero when thrown.

[Derakon]

Several of my characters would pick it up because a 1d4 dagger is guaranteed to be better than my 1d1 fists.

More seriously, while the chance of that dagger being enchanted are small, they aren't minute, and any pluses on a lightweight weapon are a major boon in the early game. Given how easy ID-by-use is for weapons early on, there's little reason not to pick it up and try it out. If you're feeling lazy, you can just throw it at the next gray mushroom patch you find; it probably won't break.

[Timo Pietilä]

So, the first small kobold -- two steps away from the stairs -- that you kill drops a dagger at 50ft... would you pick it up or leave it behind, because there's 99.9999999999% chance that it'll be a regular dagger?

Yes, because it has chance of not being regular.