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[Timo Pietilä]

Allow me. It doesn't remove all challenge from the game. It removes all challenge from winning. In short, a save-scummed win is inevitable.

Well, it does remove most of the challenge as well, and it also teaches you wrong habits (what to have and what to fight and where to be and what needs to be avoided).

If you only play save-scum -games you never learn how the game should be played. It leads to this "Now I was wondering has anybody ever gone through the whole game without dying? Seems impossible to me" -comment. He doesn't know how to play this game, so he thinks it is difficult.

If you save-scum use it as learning experience to what to expect, not as how you should play the game.

Only real threats in the game are death by frustration and death by boredom. Both make you do stupid things. Everything else is easy.

[s-man]

Actually the OP (meaning me) didn't give "save-scumming" a second thought. I had actually never heard that term until I read through this post. And let me say, wow, you people really do take this game seriously don't you!

I was playing for the enjoyment of getting through the game and seeing all there was to see. I wasn't trying to beat anybody's personal best and brag about it or even claim my so-called "win" (which I guess wasn't a real win according to the rules). I just wanted to have fun and not have to die over and over for a year to get to Morgoth. For me it is all about seeing the variety of monsters and weapons.

So I apologize for posting this "win", I take it back, it wasn't a true game at all. I save-scummed, am sorry, it will never happen again!

[buzzkill]

Rereading the thread, it sounds like the OP was under the impression that almost everybody save-scummed to some extent or another, and those that didn't certainly didn't win.

Now I was wondering has anybody ever gone through the whole game without dying? Seems impossible to me.

I don't see the harm in letting him know that while any win (I suppose) is exciting, that most people play without save-scumming, and that hard-scummed victories might be personal accomplishments, that's all they are.

[Derakon]

But it's meaningless in the context of Angband as it is intended to be played, and playing without dying is as intended. It's meaningless because there's nothing to gauge it against, there's no way to rate it. Without additional record keeping, it can't even be compared to over save-scummed wins.

Who cares? The people playing this way aren't competing with anyone, not even themselves. They're playing the game to play the game, not to try to beat some prior achievement. It's a non-competitive attitude towards the game.

And no, it's not something you can really brag about. Again, that's not the point.

Finally, you can play modern GTA games with permadeath. Just delete the savefile if/when you die.

[buzzkill]

This started out as a one line reply, sorry about the sprawl.

That may have been true fifteen years ago, but "lives" are such an outmoded concept these days that they're practically never used any more.

But lives are still used in Angband, and you get only the one you start with.

Beyond that, I feel the evolution of harshness in gaming is part PC and part sales gimmick. If you play long enough, you wins, everybody wins. Buy the sequel. Woo-hoo.

I love GTA (Grand Theft Auto). I've been playing it since the original. In the original, although you had multiple lives, there was no way to save a game until you completed a level (which could take hours). This effectively eliminated save-scumming. I saw this as a design flaw (because I would have loved to have been able to just save the frickin' game sometimes), but it did make the game genuinely hard. In fact, I don't know if I ever did complete it, but I would still play it, even today.

Modern day GTA just gives you unlimited lives. Play it long enough and you will win assuming you're reflexes are quick enough. I'm by no means a great GTA player but I beat the game eventually. How many times did I die. Don't know. Don't care, but it was a lot. Despite this being the norm in GTA, I don't consider it a great accomplishment. If I beat it without dying, I'd be shouting it from the rooftops. I'd have it tattooed in my flesh.

But again, that doesn't mean that winning with a save-scummed game is meaningless.

But it's meaningless in the context of Angband as it is intended to be played, and playing without dying is as intended. It's meaningless because there's nothing to gauge it against, there's no way to rate it. Without additional record keeping, it can't even be compared to over save-scummed wins.

If you go out to the golf course and take as many mulligans as you like, then you can't walk into the clubhouse and brag about shooting 16 under par... over the course of 3 days. If it means something to you, that's great, but I wouldn't expect real golfers (or anyone who knows the first thing about the game) to take your accomplishment too seriously.

I wouldn't discourage anyone from save-scumming if that's the only way that they find Angband to be fun. I would heartily encourage anyone who has only save-scummed to play with just one life (or maybe 2 lives or 3, set some limit before you begin). You're not going to be taken seriously by anyone if you just make up the rules as you go along. Anyone can suceed doing that.

[Derakon]

In most, if not all, games where dying is allowed you receive a limited number of lives in which to accomplish your mission. Angband when played with save-scumming has no such restrictions.

That may have been true fifteen years ago, but "lives" are such an outmoded concept these days that they're practically never used any more. Instead the game kicks you back to the last checkpoint (whether manually or automatically created) and you try again. I think the Mario and Sonic games are the only modern games I've seen that still use lives -- and there, running out of lives simply kicks you back to a slightly more distant checkpoint (in Mario, back to your last savepoint, losing completion of any levels finished since then; in Sonic you go to the beginning of the level instead of the last in-level checkpoint).

There's plenty of people out there who want to play games as an "experience", not as a "challenge". They want to see what kinds of items and monsters show up in the late game, without having to master the early game to get there. Hence, savescumming. Angband won't have the same replayability for them, but that doesn't mean that their approach to it is somehow flawed.

Certainly you should make it clear that you savescummed, if you did. That's only politeness. But again, that doesn't mean that winning with a savescummed game is meaningless.

[buzzkill]

Okay, guys, you can lay off a bit. A savescummed win is still a notable accomplishment; it's not like savescumming removes all the challenge from the game. Sure, a savescummed win isn't a "real" win, but there's no need to insult the achievement.

Allow me. It doesn't remove all challenge from the game. It removes all challenge from winning. In short, a save-scummed win is inevitable.

In most, if not all, games where dying is allowed you receive a limited number of lives in which to accomplish your mission. Angband when played with save-scumming has no such restrictions.

If the limited lives restriction is not utilized, then usually in it's place is a weakening of the player character in some way as a penalty. Also, these type games tend to operate in real-time, not turn based.

In either of these scenarios a timer could also be utilized to increase difficulty.

In a turn-based game such as Angband, if you play with unlimited lives in an infinite dungeon, without any penalty for dying and no time limit, you will eventually win. It's inevitable.

Whether it's an accomplishment or not depends on the severity of the abuse which can't be quantified.

If you're playing for glory and bragging rights, you must not save scum.

Then again, if you're playing for fun do whatever you want, but posts to the ladder should state explicitly that save-scummed characters were in fact save-scummed. AAMOF, I'd go so far as to allow an indication in the ladder dump dialog that one could use to indicate a save-scummed or otherwise compromised character, and an ladder option (check box) to filter them out of displayed results.

[Therem Harth]

Okay, I feel I have to pitch in here...

I generally save-scum. I don't consider my (few) wins when doing so to be legit in any way; I don't post save-scummed characters on the ladder.

I don't save-scum because I feel pressured to win, and want to pass off a save-scummed win as legit. I save-scum because my characters get killed a lot, and restarting the game all the time gets boring fast.

Yes, I could stop save-scumming and become a better player. But I don't play Angband to become a better Angband player, I play it to have fun in my spare time. I really don't see the purpose of expending that much effort on something of no conceivable benefit to me.

All that said... If you claim a save-scummed win as legit, you are an idiot. But I don't consider save-scumming to be such a terrible thing in and of itself.

[Derakon]

Okay, guys, you can lay off a bit. A savescummed win is still a notable accomplishment; it's not like savescumming removes all the challenge from the game. Sure, a savescummed win isn't a "real" win, but there's no need to insult the achievement.

[AnonymousHero]

I think that calling Ironman "not hard" is a bit of a stretch.

But yeah, you can't call a game where you've died and reloaded a "win".

I'd go as far as to say that dying is the best part of the game. You can't appreciate the game fully if you save-scum. You don't get the full variety of the Angband experience. When you play many characters you have all sorts of different storylines. In one game you might find a wand of Annihilation early on that enables you to take out uniques. In another game you might find a really good bow on dlvl 5. Some people even find a Potion of Experience early on and find themselves at clvl 29 or so before they know it.

Save-scumming leads to grinding and inevitable boredom. Diving fast and accepting that most of the time it will end badly and you'll have to start a new character is the most enjoyable way to play Angband, IMHO.

/Former save-scummer
//Will never save-scum again, no matter how heartbreaking a death might be

Indeed.

The fact that save-scumming requires you to do something outside the game should be enough of a tip-off that you're doing something that's not exactly legitimate.

Save-scummed(*) wins are simply not wins in any meaningful sense of the word. It kind of a sad indictment of the modern gamer mentality that this even has to be stated, but there it is.

(*) Or any other way of cheating death, unless explicitly included in the game rules. As an example of in-game "cheat death" rules, worshipping Eru in ToME 2.x will give you a reasonable chance (>66% IIRC) of cheating death if your piety is high enough at the point of death. Whether you do is completely up to luck (so don't rely on it!), but it's a coded rule.

[Goldbug]

You cant win with dying, it does not count. So everybody, who ever wins have done it without dying, very easy really, just dont let your @ die and win will happen after some time. Even ironman, unless it is egoless ironman, is not hard.

I think that calling Ironman "not hard" is a bit of a stretch.

But yeah, you can't call a game where you've died and reloaded a "win".

I'd go as far as to say that dying is the best part of the game. You can't appreciate the game fully if you save-scum. You don't get the full variety of the Angband experience. When you play many characters you have all sorts of different storylines. In one game you might find a wand of Annihilation early on that enables you to take out uniques. In another game you might find a really good bow on dlvl 5. Some people even find a Potion of Experience early on and find themselves at clvl 29 or so before they know it.

Save-scumming leads to grinding and inevitable boredom. Diving fast and accepting that most of the time it will end badly and you'll have to start a new character is the most enjoyable way to play Angband, IMHO.

/Former save-scummer
//Will never save-scum again, no matter how heartbreaking a death might be

[buzzkill]

Steamband looks really interesting to me, I might give that a shot.

Steamband rocks. It can't be said enough, but it's not your typical rougelike. It's pretty brutal, and there's a little bit of learning to do, which probably involves browsing the help files, or at least reading the FAQ.

EDIT: I'd be remiss if I didn't include a link to my Steamband winner. One of (my) only two rouge-like wins ever.

[LostTemplar]

Now I was wondering has anybody ever gone through the whole game without dying?

You cant win with dying, it does not count. So everybody, who ever wins have done it without dying, very easy really, just dont let your @ die and win will happen after some time. Even ironman, unless it is egoless ironman, is not hard.

[nppangband]

Is lvl 127 where its most prevalently found?

It's just the deepest level in the dungeon, so based on how object generation works it is the level that you have the best chance of finding it. (Object generation was very recently changed in Angband, so this may no longer be the case. I am not sure)

[debo]

I personally took my recent winner and scummed around trying to find Deathwreaker, which is easier to find than the One. Ran out of patience, though. After killing M, there didn't seem much point.

In general, finding a specific artifact on your wish list can take a looooong time. Look through some of the extremely-high-scoring ladder characters and read the comments and the turncounts. It's kinda scary

The problem I have is that after I finish a roguelike, I usually find it more interesting to play a _different_ roguelike than to finish the same one again w/ a different, more challenging race/class combination. Steamband looks really interesting to me, I might give that a shot.

Angband 3.3.x is probably my favorite roguelike ever so far, though. The fact that it's a bit easier than most helps a lot, I'm sure. Regardless of why, I found it to be super addictive. Thanks, devs