Might monster fleeing be a bad thing?

[Mikko Lehtinen]

If a monster is to be able to surrender, then the player needs to have a reason to accept surrender since killing the monster would be trivial.

I was thinking that handling the surrender and all the moral questions could be just abstracted away. The monsters's moral is completely broken and it simply cannot keep fighting anymore. It would be left for the player's imagination whether the hero just kills her prisoners or lets them live.

Mechanically, the surrendered monster would simply be dead, and you would get full experience and all drops.

Of course it might be interesting to have an interrogation and torture subgame (for a mapping bonus, for example) after each dungeon level is cleared.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

This would make Scare Monster much more powerful but I'm okay with that. Currently scaring a monster is usually much less effective than confusing or blinding it.

[bio_hazard]

I'd prefer to see fleeing monsters sometimes dropping their loot while fleeing. Maybe they could just disappear if they leave the detect radius as well.

I don't see much point in surrender. However, in variant land- would be cool if they were subdued, and by your mercy you had a choice to kill or for them to become allies. Obviously not all monsters would give you this option, or option might depend on your race/class. This would of courserequire a whole system to interact with allies, such as healing them from their near-death state.

[BlueFish]

It seems like people like the concept of monsters fleeing due to low HP, but nobody likes the current implementation. I suspect that in a universe where Angband never had fleeing due to low HP, and it was then added with the current implementation, it would be resoundingly shot down by the entire player base as something that adds annoyance and nothing of value. It does not make the game meaningfully harder, easier, or more tactically diverse or interesting. It's just annoying.

I think I'm noticing it more now because I'm playing in the V4 branch and weapon damage is lower there. When you have to chip away at monsters, they'll almost always hit the "flee zone" and often if not usually several times per monster.

I'm at the point of downloading a private version of the code and changing the threshold number for when monsters flee to "0% HP". Presumably the change would be so simple?

[bio_hazard]

It does not make the game meaningfully harder, easier, or more tactically diverse or interesting.

I don't agree with this statement at all.

It's just annoying.

I sometimes agree with this.

I like your idea to modify the threshold of fleeing, not necessarily to set it to zero for all monsters, but to vary it in some logical way across monster types. I could even see setting it to 100% in certain cases.

[Derakon]

IIRC monsters that are very weak compared to the player have a sort of pseudo-fear where they'll try to avoid combat unless the player initiates it (which in turn tends to be rather one-sided since, well, they're weak). This is mostly notable when running around town at the higher character levels, but it does affect kobolds, cutpurses, etc. that show up deep in the dungeon.

Anyway, just because the current fleeing mechanic could be improved doesn't mean it adds nothing to the game as it stands. But you're of course free to make whatever changes to the game you like; one of the beauties of open source. For my part, I tend to make all rods immune to electricity (as they used to be) whenever I roll up a new warrior.

[BlueFish]

Anyway, just because the current fleeing mechanic could be improved doesn't mean it adds nothing to the game as it stands.

I agree but that wasn't my point.

It just seems to me that both of the following are pretty self-evident.

1. It's not fun to have to spend more turns chasing down fleeing monsters than you do in wacking them with your dagger, as a reward for demonstrating that you can whittle them down to 10% HP (or wherever the threshold is). I.e., your reward for demonstrating that you can kill the monster is to spend a few turns in a meaningless chase where they're no longer attacking and you no longer can attack them (in melee at least).

2. Whatever reasoning anybody can come up with to support the current implementation of fleeing won't be enough to counteract the annoyance of #1.

... and that therefore fleeing due to low HP detracts from the game.

I do agree that more interesting AI implementations could make fleeing cool. But such discussions are academic, as the only two realistic options are to remove fleeing or keep it.

It seems that nobody is going to agree with me about this, but I do think it would make for a better, more playable game. The efforts to make angband and especially the early game harder are exacerbating the fact that fleeing is annoying.

[EpicMan]

One thing fleeing adds to the game is the benefit of a ranged attack. Just shoot/zap the fleeing guys, most monsters will die in a couple of hits and you don't have to chase them.

In ADOM fleeing monsters with nowhere to go would sometimes go berserk, greatly increasing their damage. They were both very dangerous and insane - they would also attack other monsters or even themselves.

It added a panicked moment when a monster went berserk, because suddenly their ability to kill you went way up and you found yourself running away from them.

[Nick]

It seems that nobody is going to agree with me about this, but I do think it would make for a better, more playable game. The efforts to make angband and especially the early game harder are exacerbating the fact that fleeing is annoying.

This is a great opportunity to modify the game yourself, then.

[Derakon]

Bluefish: there's an underlying assumption there that a fleeing monster is harmless, which isn't true for any monster that has magical abilities (including the ability to shoot arrows). Suddenly you have a monster that can still hurt you (or summon other monsters, or teleport you around) but is actively avoiding melee. That's not just nothing.

I'll grant this isn't especially relevant in the early game though.

[relic]

Well, I also think that fleeing is annoying, adding tedium, and that it is actually making the game easier.

Case in point: I once was playing a mage who had gone up to, say, level 5 or 6. He still was exploring the first dungeon levels. One time he heard doors being broken down. And into a room comes Grip or Fang. There is no nearby escape and he can't of course outrun the dog. He starts to fire magic missiles at the dog. Maybe three or four missiles hits the dog but it is still approaching. Down to his last mana point he fires again, hoping that the spell won't fail. It doesn't and suddenly Grip (or Fang) starts fleeing. The mage starts off in the opposite direction and head for the nearest staircase. He survived that encounter.

Without fleeing and if that last MM spell had failed, the probability that he would have died is quite high, I think.

[half]

Blue Fish,

You make a good and interesting point that monster fear currently has annoying aspects, with relatively little tactical depth and that with the current standards of design we probably wouldn't have implemented it if it was going to be like this. However, you then take this a little too far when you argue that it is clearly better to remove it:

It just seems to me that both of the following are pretty self-evident.

...

It seems that nobody is going to agree with me about this.

This could be some evidence that it is not self-evident...

It is actually not all that hard to come up with a better monster fear system. I'm doing it myself right now for my unreleased variant, Sil. The Vanilla rules for fear are actually pretty bad (you'd be surprised how bad, just try searching through the code for them), but it can be made better.

My system is a monster morale level, which is modified by many things. If it is zero or less, the monster is in fleeing mode. I have situational modifiers for things like the monster's native level compared to the current level, the monster's proportion of remaining HP, the player's proportion, status effects for the monster and player, and most interestingly, the number of non-fleeing monsters of the same letter in LOS of the monster. I count creatures with the ESCORTS flag as worth four times as much for this purpose, so they are good at rallying their troops. I count the similar monster thing as negative if the other monster is fleeing, so killing an orc can make the others flee -- especially if you kill the captain or unique.

In addition, I have a temporary fear modifier for each monster, that drops back towards zero over time, and I increase it if the a similar monster dies in LOS, or if magical fear effects are used, or if slaying weapons are used on similar monsters in LOS.

I've set the constants so that monsters which flee typically flee much further and only come back with about 75% of their HP restored. Some just set up shop in the location they fled to and don't come back. I want to add fleeing to the staircases too as it is a good idea.

In all, it is a much neater system, where you can deliberately work out who in the group to target to get a kill or fleeing monster, which then can snowball into a rout. Of course such combat is tactically richer but more complex too, so for a lazy player, it is only worth it if you are playing at a challenging depth where the benefits of using tactics to make monsters flee are worth it.

half.

[BlueFish]

Bluefish: there's an underlying assumption there that a fleeing monster is harmless, which isn't true for any monster that has magical abilities (including the ability to shoot arrows). Suddenly you have a monster that can still hurt you (or summon other monsters, or teleport you around) but is actively avoiding melee. That's not just nothing.

I'll grant this isn't especially relevant in the early game though.

I don't consider this to add anything on the same level as the annoyance detracts, though, which is why it would still fit with my 2 "self-evident" points above.

In practice, 99% of the problem would be solved if only range-attack-capable monsters fled, and that'd be a fine compromise as far as I'm concerned.

[BlueFish]

Well, I also think that fleeing is annoying, adding tedium, and that it is actually making the game easier.

Case in point: I once was playing a mage who had gone up to, say, level 5 or 6. He still was exploring the first dungeon levels. One time he heard doors being broken down. And into a room comes Grip or Fang. There is no nearby escape and he can't of course outrun the dog. He starts to fire magic missiles at the dog. Maybe three or four missiles hits the dog but it is still approaching. Down to his last mana point he fires again, hoping that the spell won't fail. It doesn't and suddenly Grip (or Fang) starts fleeing. The mage starts off in the opposite direction and head for the nearest staircase. He survived that encounter.

Without fleeing and if that last MM spell had failed, the probability that he would have died is quite high, I think.

I agree that, if anything, monster fleeing due to low HP makes the game slightly easier.

[BlueFish]

Blue Fish,

You make a good and interesting point that monster fear currently has annoying aspects, with relatively little tactical depth and that with the current standards of design we probably wouldn't have implemented it if it was going to be like this. However, you then take this a little too far when you argue that it is clearly better to remove it:



This could be some evidence that it is not self-evident...

I can chalk it up to normal resistance to change.

It is actually not all that hard to come up with a better monster fear system. I'm doing it myself right now for my unreleased variant, Sil. The Vanilla rules for fear are actually pretty bad (you'd be surprised how bad, just try searching through the code for them), but it can be made better.

My system is a monster morale level, which is modified by many things. If it is zero or less, the monster is in fleeing mode. I have situational modifiers for things like the monster's native level compared to the current level, the monster's proportion of remaining HP, the player's proportion, status effects for the monster and player, and most interestingly, the number of non-fleeing monsters of the same letter in LOS of the monster. I count creatures with the ESCORTS flag as worth four times as much for this purpose, so they are good at rallying their troops. I count the similar monster thing as negative if the other monster is fleeing, so killing an orc can make the others flee -- especially if you kill the captain or unique.

In addition, I have a temporary fear modifier for each monster, that drops back towards zero over time, and I increase it if the a similar monster dies in LOS, or if magical fear effects are used, or if slaying weapons are used on similar monsters in LOS.

I've set the constants so that monsters which flee typically flee much further and only come back with about 75% of their HP restored. Some just set up shop in the location they fled to and don't come back. I want to add fleeing to the staircases too as it is a good idea.

In all, it is a much neater system, where you can deliberately work out who in the group to target to get a kill or fleeing monster, which then can snowball into a rout. Of course such combat is tactically richer but more complex too, so for a lazy player, it is only worth it if you are playing at a challenging depth where the benefits of using tactics to make monsters flee are worth it.

half.

Interesting ideas! I'll look forward to playing your variant when you release it.