The 3.3.0 release thread

[Derakon]

I think the point was to try to give the player a reason to use high AC armor in place of a resist. The practical effect was just to nerf monster melee. I'd rather see efforts to make monster melee more dangerous and monster ranged attacks weaker. E.g., I'd like to remove the melee damage reduction based on AC.

Remember that at the same time that AC was increased, the AC scale was redrawn to make it more of a requirement to get high AC...at least, as far as damage reduction from AC is concerned. I assume that something similar was done to chance to-hit, but I haven't checked.

I always thought of the change to AC as nerfing light armor, not as buffing armor in general.

[Magnate]

290 from equipment {Axe +36, Necklace +31, Armour +65, Cloak +19, Shield +44, Helm +28, Gauntlets +52, Sandals +15} and I guess +14 from having Dex 18/190.

Ok, that's not too awful. The shield and the gauntlets are very high AC for their slots, but what's really making the difference is the necklace and the axe. In both cases the AC is instead of significant other powers they could have had (damage/slays/brands/blows etc.).

[Magnate]

Remember that at the same time that AC was increased, the AC scale was redrawn to make it more of a requirement to get high AC...at least, as far as damage reduction from AC is concerned. I assume that something similar was done to chance to-hit, but I haven't checked.

I always thought of the change to AC as nerfing light armor, not as buffing armor in general.

In fact I didn't mess with the to-hit algorithm when I changed the AC scale, so yes, higher ACs do and should have a noticeable effect on monsters' chance to hit you. Conscious of being criticised for messing about with complex balance issues without due care, I left it alone. Plus, before this change, nobody ever commented that their armour was so good that high-level monsters actually missed noticeably often.

Part of the problem with this game is breaking the changes down into manageable chunks. If you don't do that, you can never change anything. If you do, there are more unintended consequences arising from the individual chunks (witness the current crop of input layer bugs as an example).

So yes, the AC changes have made AC more significant (I don't think they have nerfed light armour - rather they have made it no longer such an obvious choice for all characters). Yes this is incomplete - as Eddie says, it ought to be followed by increases in monster melee danger (though this would then make it *even more important*!).

But this won't be properly solved until we've completed the evasion/absorption split. First we have to get it right for monsters, then we have the much tougher job of implementing it for @. Then, finally, light armours and light weapons will be properly comparable with heavy armours and heavy weapons. So sometime around 5.6.7

[Magnate]

Tonight's RC build has some improvements to the keymap UI from d_m. In particular, the ctrl-enter bug should be gone: use $ to exit the keymap editor. (If anybody needs to use $ in a keymap, let us know why.)

[Thraalbee]

Providing that it is still uncommon to get this high AC, I won't say AC is broken. At least not until having seen the effect it has on the top unique's and Morgoth.

I did make some choices I usually wouldn't have done to maximise my AC and see the effect. I.e. I could have been wearing a stronger kit if I had not chosen items with higher AC even when somewhat inferior otherwise.

/Mathias

[nobody]

really don't like the new lower prices for selling things. it puts a bad taste in my mouth, almost as if the developers wants us to go all no-sell. i haven't upgraded since 3.2.0, and i also don't know if i like the new spell setup for rogues, which spells they learn and when. i do love that walls are blocks by default. people say # are the old school walls, i would swear i remember blocks 20 years ago

[Derakon]

Both wall types have been around basically forever, so I don't think you can reasonably characterize one as "old-school" to differentiate it from the other. I played Moria with block walls and Angband frog-knows with '#' walls back in the day.

Regarding selling prices, I don't know what the pricing curve looks like but it used to be that even with really quite bad CHA scores shopkeepers would buy things at better than 80% of the price they sold them for. I mentioned this at some point (well before no-selling fever seized the forum) and IIRC Magnate mentioned reducing that ratio as a reasonable thing to do to make money relevant for longer.

If that makes no-selling more tempting as a playstyle, then I'd say the solution is to make cash less plentiful in no-selling, too. The two play modes should give you roughly equivalent amounts of cash, with a minor bias in favor of selling to make up for the extra effort expended.

[PowerDiver]

So yes, the AC changes have made AC more significant (I don't think they have nerfed light armour - rather they have made it no longer such an obvious choice for all characters). Yes this is incomplete - as Eddie says, it ought to be followed by increases in monster melee danger (though this would then make it *even more important*!).

In my games, I haven't changed equipment choices at all. Cover resists as best I can, and then choose the best AC combination that does not result in slowing. The *only* difference is that monsters hit me less, and when they hit I assume [I haven't looked] less damage gets through to reduce my hp. I consider that to be nerfing monster melee, although perhaps there is better term to use.

I had a recent warrior win in under 250K turns. I don't remember even getting close to that in 3.0 or 3.1. I think the reduction in damage from monster attacks played a large part.

[edit]
Have you ever worn Celeborn, and thought "I'd use something else if it had 20 less AC"?
Have you ever not worn Celeborn and thought "I'd use Celeborn if it only had 20 more AC"?
The AC doesn't affect your choice. The only thing boosting its AC does is to make the game easier.

[scud]

Have explosive breeders reignited in the 20 June nightly? I haven't had a problem with them for a few months, but in my current game the little bastards have already caused me to abandon 4-5 levels.

[d_m]

Have explosive breeders reignited in the 20 June nightly? I haven't had a problem with them for a few months, but in my current game the little bastards have already caused me to abandon 4-5 levels.

I can't think of a change that would directly contribute to this.

If you notice any patterns please report them!

[Derakon]

Maybe you're just playing a race/class combo with less stealth than usual?

[scud]

I can't think of a change that would directly contribute to this.

Howsabout this, then? My first actual 'unexpected quit' (rather than freeze) of the millennium!

Exception Type: EXC_CRASH (SIGABRT)
Exception Codes: 0x0000000000000000, 0x0000000000000000
Crashed Thread: 0 Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread

Application Specific Information:
Assertion failed: (o_ptr->kind), function object_flavor_is_aware, file object/identify.c, line 132.

[scud]

Maybe you're just playing a race/class combo with less stealth than usual?

High Elf Ranger with +1 stealth, so I'm more or less on tippy-toes. It might be that I'm still unhastened whereas I'd usually be at least +5 by now, and that the +5 is quick enough to castrate the problem in the bud.

[d_m]

Howsabout this, then? My first actual 'unexpected quit' (rather than freeze) of the millennium!

Exception Type: EXC_CRASH (SIGABRT)
Exception Codes: 0x0000000000000000, 0x0000000000000000
Crashed Thread: 0 Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread

Application Specific Information:
Assertion failed: (o_ptr->kind), function object_flavor_is_aware, file object/identify.c, line 132.

Wow! Nice job

Can you remember anything about what you were doing prior to this? Do you have a panic save?

EDIT: Clearly missed the part about the attachment. Taking a look now.

[Jazerus]

Wow! Nice job

Can you remember anything about what you were doing prior to this? Do you have a panic save?

EDIT: Clearly missed the part about the attachment. Taking a look now.

I've also run into this; I didn't have the foresight to preserve the save at the time, but I do recall that it happened just as I landed the last blow on Smeagol - maybe an issue with his item drops?