Level feelings, yeah, again

[Derakon]

Making the feelings in general vague, harder to gauge whether its a great level or not, would also be an improvement.

Are the current level feelings insufficiently vague, then?

Level feelings are not solely an indication of loot quality, nor should they be unless we somehow find a way to eliminate scumming altogether. Otherwise players will simply scum until they get told there's something awesome on the level.

I guess my fix to level feelings would be to change them from sum(feeling influences) to max(feeling influences). The level feeling is simply the feeling given by the single largest influence on the level. If that's a lesser vault, so be it. If that's an unusually OOD item in the lesser vault, then likewise. If it's Omarax showing up 1000' out of depth, etc. As I see it, this would reduce the "superb" inflation I've seen lately, which I must assume is caused by the presence of a large number of slightly unusual things. It would however have next to no impact on boring levels.

[fizzix]

I guess my fix to level feelings would be to change them from sum(feeling influences) to max(feeling influences). The level feeling is simply the feeling given by the single largest influence on the level. If that's a lesser vault, so be it. If that's an unusually OOD item in the lesser vault, then likewise. If it's Omarax showing up 1000' out of depth, etc. As I see it, this would reduce the "superb" inflation I've seen lately, which I must assume is caused by the presence of a large number of slightly unusual things. It would however have next to no impact on boring levels.

that's an interesting idea, although I think it might be too far the other way. Perhaps a compromise that looks like sqrt( sum (item_rating^2)) or cube root ( sum ( item_rating^3)) would help somewhat.

[Spacebux]

that's an interesting idea, although I think it might be too far the other way. Perhaps a compromise that looks like sqrt( sum (item_rating^2)) or cube root ( sum ( item_rating^3)) would help somewhat.

As long as the feeling refers to ITEMS and does not factor in mobs or vaults, good. I would much rather see treasure feelings separated from danger feelings - "you feel a sense of impending doom..." for a level with several OoD mobs, e.g. "You feel the need to update your last will & testament." You know, something that describes the level of mobs one might encounter on the level.

My idea about ambiguity goes on to suggest that even a "good" or "very good" feeling could turn up an artifact type treasure. I would like to see more ambiguity in generating the level feelings such that they are less reliable in determining what might actually be on the level.

What a pleasant surprise it might be to find that "impending doom" was just a fluctuation in the RNG and a wave of blue icky things was the worst atrocity on the level? Comparatively, players would have less angst against levels that were supposed "superb" and found little to support such a feeling. I.e., fewer gripes.

Feelings are just supposed to be feelings, not news broadcasts.

[Derakon]

As long as the feeling refers to ITEMS and does not factor in mobs or vaults, good.

As I noted earlier, I strongly doubt this will happen as it encourages players to scum for good level feelings. Why would you bother exploring a level that you know doesn't have any good loot on the floor?

[Starhawk]

I don't get the kvetching about level feelings not being sufficiently vague. I have explored plenty of 'superb' levels to find nothing to get worked up about -- only a jelly pit and a vault with no artifacts. Similarly, I've explored a 'good' level and found an artifact on the floor.

That seems pretty darned vague to me.

[Spacebux]

I don't get the kvetching about level feelings not being sufficiently vague. I have explored plenty of 'superb' levels to find nothing to get worked up about -- only a jelly pit and a vault with no artifacts. Similarly, I've explored a 'good' level and found an artifact on the floor.

That seems pretty darned vague to me.

That's my pet peeve there ... jelly pits skewing level feelings. I'm not a level scummer, so, I am tired of pits being the cause for a great level feeling, which is why I want them separated. So jelly pit hunters can have their candy, and I can have a reduced set of expectations for the level.


I don't know how hi-level Books are counted in level feelings, but if one already has a copy or that book or it is for a different type of caster (i.e., unusable), then I hope the code would discount that into the level feeling.

[meJustmeNotyou]

(new here)

i think i am getting why these levels feelings are so all over the map on what people want.

Maybe, have an option to change them to what you want. I know this requires programming but... i bet it's not so hard... we just all have lives away from here obviously.

Like the birth option that gives us the ability to get special feelings.

Maybe create your 2 or 3 ideas and make them all options at birth.

chosing one only.

I don't know how hard that would be to program up but... except for the really detailed ideas i've read I think it might be pretty easy....

1 for special / lose artifacts (this choice you could combine with one other below though)

1 for feelings for monsters only

1 treasures

1 combo (i personaly like someones double idea like "impending doom" but mixed with "superb" ... like "you have a superb feeling about this level, though you also have a strong feeling of impending doom"

except maybe a few of the veteran players (i aint one) would maybe have to go down some big list of monsters/items/whatevers and decide what is for what feeling... for say... a base standard powered level 25 character (whatever they decide one is)......


Which i guess adds another thing... maybe feelings need to not just be determined by a character's level or the things created in the dungeon floor but also somehow have a value adding up all the character's equipped items (mass artifacts giving the character a higher value for determing whether a feeling should be lowered in severity or made more toward the more special direction).

the veterans could come up with their list of the feeling names list.... and then the base level 25 standard character/items value decided... and go from there, up or down to generate what a particular character has as the feeling.

you could add whatever other ideas i've seen (or the masses i haven't seen) as further birth adjustments... like a submenu after a first standard feeling choice.

ideas tossed out depending on whether the dev people decide it isn't angband'ish.

sorry if i'm being redundant and i know i'm sucking up other's ideas..

just my 2 cents (from a new person).

[Spacebux]

(new here)

ideas tossed out depending on whether the dev people decide it isn't angband'ish.

sorry if i'm being redundant and i know i'm sucking up other's ideas..

just my 2 cents (from a new person).

Don't worry about apologizing, leave that to Obama. (Cheap-shot, I know...)

Just state your opinion and support it.

I concur with your idea of having Birth Options to set level feelings in the game---more than the current On/Off option. But, in accordance to what's most pressing for the coders, we may not get such for quite a while.

On the other hand, if you can code some yourself, make a change and throw it up for consideration, you might find acceptance easier.

--Spacebux--

[Timo Pietilä]

Don't worry about apologizing, leave that to Obama. (Cheap-shot, I know...)

Politics don't belong here. Stop that or be banned.

[myshkin]

Just for reference, the debates about level feelings have been going on for a long time.

[meJustmeNotyou]

Don't worry about apologizing, leave that to Obama. (Cheap-shot, I know...)

On the other hand, if you can code some yourself, make a change and throw it up for consideration, you might find acceptance easier.

--Spacebux--

i would if i could, but i haven['t programmed since i programmed basic (vic 20, 13th birthday present) and basic and assembler code (c-64).... i'm behind the curve now.

but i'm up for learning again.

[Nick]

Don't worry about apologizing, leave that to Obama. (Cheap-shot, I know...)

A couple of people have responded, but I wanted to make it crystal clear.

There are several people who post to this forum who I know from other sources to have strong views on politics, but I would not know it from how they post here. You, on the other hand, have brought it up for essentially no reason in two separate threads. Quite apart from the potential divisiveness it introduces, you seem to assume that we are all American, when probably the majority of us are not.

If you do this again, I'll be personally requesting Pav to ban you.

[TJS]

Politics don't belong here. Stop that or be banned.

If you do this again, I'll be personally requesting Pav to ban you.

As someone who doesn't really want to read about politics either I find the above messages far more intrusive, annoying and bullying than the throwaway one by Spacebux. It seems to come from long time posters desperate to throw their weight around towards the 'newbies' by the looks of it. Isn't there a friendlier way of saying this?

Someone else got totally hammered on here for putting coloured text into their post. What a terrible crime to commit - quick get Pav to ban them as well.

[Timo Pietilä]

Someone else got totally hammered on here for putting coloured text into their post. What a terrible crime to commit - quick get Pav to ban them as well.

Actually that also was Spacebux. I just told him I couldn't read his texts, which was quite literally true. He seems to write readable text now, so message got thru, maybe not from my message, but from others.

If he learns from this one also, he's showing up some pretty good sense of how to deal with people in forums.

Politics don't belong here, and I do think that banning is just right thing to do for that, but not before warning. Consider this a Vulcan way of approaching things. Simple, no-bullshit, straight to the point comment of cause and consequence. Ultimately it obviously is Pavs decision, but continuous political crap IMO is not something we need to see from even one person, and worse yet would be political flame-war that someone would eventually start over it.

[Nick]

As someone who doesn't really want to read about politics either I find the above messages far more intrusive, annoying and bullying than the throwaway one by Spacebux. It seems to come from long time posters desperate to throw their weight around towards the 'newbies' by the looks of it. Isn't there a friendlier way of saying this?

My apologies - it probably was a bit over the top. It was the second comment in a short space of time, and I didn't want it becoming a trend ... but I guess that's just my opinion.

I'm now really tempted to make my sig "Long time poster desperate to throw his weight around".

Someone else got totally hammered on here for putting coloured text into their post. What a terrible crime to commit - quick get Pav to ban them as well.

Well, not someone else

As a peace offering to Spacebux, here are some liberals he might like...