What else should not be allowed in vaults?

[buzzkill]

What it comes down to is that I think teleport other should be comparably powerful to summoning. If a single summons can bring 40 monsters, teleport other should be able to dismiss 40 monsters. There's no facts or argument here, just my opinion.

That depends on the summons doesn't it. TO appears too early, has too low a fail rate, and is too common. It should be able to dismiss 40 yeeks. It should not be able to dismiss 40 wyrms, or worse.

Three possible solutions, some I think, variations of already mentioned ideas. Without tinkering with depth or rarity...

Base TO's power on players CL. Give it the ability to dismiss (players_CL*10) levels of monsters (count uniques as native depth x2). Thus, a 10th level character would be able to TO ~10 garden variety lesser orcs. A 50th level char could effectively TO 500 small kobolds, or 1-5 big baddies. In any case it would alway be effective on at least one target (or maybe not, we could allow a save if there isn't enough power there). I'm not crazy about this because I don't feel that RSW's power should scale according to the user, but this would work for the spell version nicely.

Wand always bolt.

Rods bolt with a decent (50%) chance to beam.

Why no staff of TO? Radius 1? 2? 3? area of effect.

[Nomad]

The problem is teleporting a summoner behind his summons. Sometimes I want to try to kill a summoner when it is risky. If TO is a bolt, I couldn't take the chance.

How about Teleport Other as a ball spell? That way it's a limited effect but you can still target over monsters' heads to get the one you want.

[Magnate]

How about Teleport Other as a ball spell? That way it's a limited effect but you can still target over monsters' heads to get the one you want.

Now that's a great idea.

[ewert]

I was going to suggest the same, TO as ball spell sounds like an idea.

[Timo Pietilä]

I was going to suggest the same, TO as ball spell sounds like an idea.

How big radius? If it has even radius 1 it allows TO:in monsters you don't even see with current spell range. If 0 so that it affects only the target, then it would be OK.

[ewert]

Hmm darn yeah LoS ... good catch. Keep spell and wands as bolt, add staff deeper down with LoS teleO?

[PowerDiver]

How about Teleport Other as a ball spell? That way it's a limited effect but you can still target over monsters' heads to get the one you want.

I think summoning is *worse* than teleport other, and if summoning isn't changed first I would rather increase the power of teleport other than reduce it.

I'll never agree so long as a single summons can get two balrog uniques each with a score or more of greater balrogs for escorts. In many situations, even with a beam spell, it is hard to get rid of massive numbers of monsters with breath weapons. Even "summons ancient dragons" can be too much if you get 3 wyrms with non-elemental breaths and you can only get rid of 1 along with the summoner. Lining things up in a corridor wouldn't work any more with a small ball.

I guess I'm just repeating myself, and the rest of you think I'm wrong, so I'll bow out now and leave you all to decide what works for you.

[Timo Pietilä]

In many situations, even with a beam spell, it is hard to get rid of massive numbers of monsters with breath weapons. Even "summons ancient dragons" can be too much if you get 3 wyrms with non-elemental breaths and you can only get rid of 1 along with the summoner. Lining things up in a corridor wouldn't work any more with a small ball.

I think it is because of your playing style. The rest of us don't need to rely on TO that much, we can manage just fine with lesser effect or for most part of the game without TO at all.

Being a extreme diver has its drawbacks, you just can't afford being target for more than one big threat at once.

[Mimu]

How about Teleport Other as a ball spell?

"Dimension Orb"? It would be fun to have it affect the player as well as monsters, in case the ball exploded too close. Then of course, that might be fun (more tactical depth) with any ball attack spells.

[TJS]

I agree that monster summons are too powerful meaning the player also has to have some overpowered ways to counteract them that allow exploits in other parts of the game.

If monsters only summoned 1-3 monsters at most then you could make the suggested changes to teleport other, banishment and destruction to remove the vault exploits without having to put in weird game play hacks that only affect certain parts of the map.

Also it might help prevent the need for digging anti-summoning corridors for the dangerous summoners making the late game a bit faster and less tedious.

By the way what was the reasoning to prevent teleporting into vaults? It seems like an interesting and very dangerous way to get in there if you're prepared to take the risk and have no other way of entering. It would also make teleporting on vault levels a bit more of a risk in case you ended up landing in the middle of a load of out of depth monsters in the vault.

[buzzkill]

I think summoning is *worse* than teleport other, and if summoning isn't changed first I would rather increase the power of teleport other than reduce it.

Oh, come on. TO isn't the only means to deal with summons. It a relatively low level item, appearing before big summoners become a big problem.

1. kill them
2. flee from them
3. ASC
4. dismiss them via deep scroll, spell, or other deep item. (banish, destruction)
5. and probably a few others I haven't thought of

You make an argument as if TO was the ONLY way to deal with summons. It's isn't. It preferable to the other means because it's very powerful and give you pin-point control. There's a reason why all characters never part with TO once they have it. Precisely because it's overpowered. How many WINNERS aren't carrying one or more TO's (that can't also cast the spell). How many other items found commonly in the 20s or 30s survive to the end game... every game. It's roughly the no-brainer equivalent of BOS+10.

[Derakon]

Keep in mind that Eddie doesn't abuse many of the LOS tricks in his games. He's effectively always playing challenge games -- even with his egoless win. Though I believe he cast Create Doors a lot with that one.

As for TO being overpowered, maybe. But just because something is used from ~dlvl 30 through to the endgame doesn't mean it's overpowered, just that it's consistently useful. I keep using !Heroism for a long time, well after I have permanent fear resistance; is it overpowered?

I'd say change TO into a radius-0 ball, exclude monsters with escorts from being summoned, and see where that puts us.

[LostTemplar]

Keep in mind that Eddie doesn't abuse many of the LOS tricks in his games. He's effectively always playing challenge games

Yes, game balance must take into account all possible play styles, not just that particular challenge game.

[fizzix]

I'd say change TO into a radius-0 ball, exclude monsters with escorts from being summoned, and see where that puts us.

Do you mean exclude the escorts? I'd rather not have Morgoth be unable to summon Vecna.

Friends is just as big an issue. Specifically when one of the monsters summoned is a gravity or time hound.

Again, this is a fairly easy change, and I can probably make a patch for it. But I've been avoiding weakening summoning because of the 'game too easy' problem. In the last game I had to burn a ?banish when Draugluin summoned time hounds. Had I not done that, I would have one extra ?banish for Morgoth. (3 -> 4 makes a big deal)

[buzzkill]

As for TO being overpowered, maybe. But just because something is used from ~dlvl 30 through to the endgame doesn't mean it's overpowered, just that it's consistently useful. I keep using !Heroism for a long time, well after I have permanent fear resistance; is it overpowered?

There's no maybe about it. Does every player always carry large stacks of heroism from beginning to end. I don't recall heroism ever clearing a vault of all it's inhabitants or sending Morgoth himself and a few of his closest friends half-way across the dungeon. There's no comparison. Well, there is the BOS comparison, but those are extremely deep and even then uncommon, and you can only use one of those.

Which leads me to more possible (less than desirable) solutions. Make TO items not stack in the pack, or make it so it must be wielded before use. At least that way you would have to take a turn to wield a fresh rod before each use.