What else should not be allowed in vaults?

[Derakon]

Do you mean exclude the escorts? I'd rather not have Morgoth be unable to summon Vecna.

Friends is just as big an issue. Specifically when one of the monsters summoned is a gravity or time hound.

It's either exclude monsters with escorts, which means that certain monsters, mostly uniques, cannot be summoned at all, or exclude the escorts from the summons, which means that you can abuse Quylthulgs to pull uniques without their escorts. Which is worse? I honestly don't know.

[d_m]

How big radius? If it has even radius 1 it allows TO:in monsters you don't even see with current spell range. If 0 so that it affects only the target, then it would be OK.

I think the idea was to have a radius-0 ball spell, so the target needs to be visible, but could be targeted behind other monsters. This was to address the problems with making TO a bolt spell.

Maybe the TO effect is worth splitting into two (or more) effects? We could have a higher level spell/effect that beams (or uses a >0 radius ball) and a lower level one that uses a bolt or 0-radius ball.

I think TO is an exciting tool to have strategically, but I do worry about it becoming a strategic crutch. Certainly my playing improved immensely when I figured out how to find and use wands of TO effectively, so much so that finding these wands is now crucially important for me.

[pampl]

I'm not sure that just because an item is ridiculously strong we need to nerf it. Thranduil and !oS are also used throughout the whole game and make you exponentially stronger but I don't think we're going to do anything about them (besides hopefully fixing the drop rate on !oS)

[d_m]

I'm not sure that just because an item is ridiculously strong we need to nerf it. Thranduil and !oS are also used throughout the whole game and make you exponentially stronger but I don't think we're going to do anything about them (besides hopefully fixing the drop rate on !oS)

I think I agree with you when it comes to artifacts... but not with wands.

I often play games where I don't get Thranduil, or at least not until the endgame. But I do get -TO (wands and rods) pretty much every single game. And unlike potions of speed I can make them last a long time (usually once I get one wand of teleport-other I will have teleport-other capability for the rest of the game, even with warriors). If you found potions or scrolls of teleport other then it would be different because you couldn't recharge them, and finding one item would give you one use of the effect (wands of TO I have found recently have 6-8 charges).

Anyway, I think this is an open question, but given that there is (was?) a lot of concern about the game being too easy I think it's worth considering these sorts of things. I am sensitive to the concern Timo voiced awhile ago about "smoothing out" the interesting parts of the game, but in some cases an unbalanced technique (e.g. the way launcher and ammo multipliers used to multiply) actually edges out many other strategies--maybe TO is similar.

[Magnate]

It's either exclude monsters with escorts, which means that certain monsters, mostly uniques, cannot be summoned at all, or exclude the escorts from the summons, which means that you can abuse Quylthulgs to pull uniques without their escorts. Which is worse? I honestly don't know.

I am very much against weakening summons at all. Yes, they are painful, but forbidding ESCORT(S) or FRIENDS is a total nerf.

That said, I am all for toning down both ESCORT(S) and FRIENDS so that the maximum number of additional beasties does not exceed, say, ten.

[fizzix]

I am very much against weakening summons at all. Yes, they are painful, but forbidding ESCORT(S) or FRIENDS is a total nerf.

That said, I am all for toning down both ESCORT(S) and FRIENDS so that the maximum number of additional beasties does not exceed, say, ten.

Have you thought about having both ESCORT and ESCORTS work the same for summons and having FRIENDS not work at all for summoned monsters? For the *most* part FRIENDS weakens summons since most of the monsters with the FRIENDS tags are weaker, and the friends can take the spots where other stronger summon monsters might come. This is most common with high undead (barrow/forest/grave wights) and demons (hezrou/vrock/barbazu). If the first monster chosen is one of these weaker races, you get a very weak summon.

Similarly with summon monster, you can get a whole slew of orcs or wolves. The notable exception are time and gravity hounds (then again there are a *lot* weaker hounds that often get summoned, like wolves...) I'm not convinced that removing FRIENDS from summons makes summons weaker.

[Derakon]

I am very much against weakening summons at all. Yes, they are painful, but forbidding ESCORT(S) or FRIENDS is a total nerf.

That said, I am all for toning down both ESCORT(S) and FRIENDS so that the maximum number of additional beasties does not exceed, say, ten.

The way I see it, currently summons dictates one of a few small strategies:

1. If the summons are weak, you ignore them.
2. You stand in an anti-summoning corridor and render all summons moot.
3. You don't stand in an ASC but instead do your best to limit LOS opportunities. The monster summons, and one or two other monsters are able to target you while you take down the summoner.
4. You have to fight in an open area. The monster summons, and you must immediately flee/destruct/TO/banish to limit your exposure.

In short, your strategies are basically "render summoning moot", "summoning means a few monsters get free hits on you" (keeping in mind that one free hit from the wrong monster can mean hundreds of HP lost), and "summoning means you have to bail on the fight".

Given that Angband's monsters are mostly designed to be balanced for one-on-one fights, summoning represents a huge force multiplier. In fact, thinking about it I can't see how limiting the max number of summoned monsters helps at all. Even if only two monsters were summoned, you'd still probably have to bail or set up the fight so they couldn't show / couldn't get LOS on you.

[PowerDiver]

Keep in mind that Eddie doesn't abuse many of the LOS tricks in his games. He's effectively always playing challenge games -- even with his egoless win. Though I believe he cast Create Doors a lot with that one.

Only once per level, on the first move, to keep from being killed by hound breaths while I did my initial detections. I saved my one use on DL100 level to use to set up against Morgoth and it didn't matter.

Then I played egoless ironman, and didn't use create stairs [or any spell in MB7] at all.

[PowerDiver]

I think it is because of your playing style. The rest of us don't need to rely on TO that much, we can manage just fine with lesser effect or for most part of the game without TO at all.

Being a extreme diver has its drawbacks, you just can't afford being target for more than one big threat at once.

I don't think it is about diving speed. I was just playing a warrior with 900 hp and +20 speed, took a try at some W unique, and it summoned 20 L's including I think 5 black reavers. It doesn't matter how prepared you are. 3 reavers in LOS is too many.

You could say it is because everyone else is kills summoners in ASCs and I don't. But a summoner in an ASC only summons a single monster without a slew of escorts, so I don't see how that is relevant at all except to say most people actually play to enforce the style of thing I was suggesting.

[Timo Pietilä]

I don't think it is about diving speed. I was just playing a warrior with 900 hp and +20 speed, took a try at some W unique, and it summoned 20 L's including I think 5 black reavers. It doesn't matter how prepared you are. 3 reavers in LOS is too many.

Vecna or Feagwath? No W summons that many pure L.

I'd say that you fought that summoner in wrong place. Summons are supposed to be powerful, I don't see any reason to nerf them. If there is a risk of getting in that kind of situation TO is not the only solution to survive that, you can teleport, level-teleport, banish, mass-banish or destruct to make things safe again.

Fighting summoners in closed space is a tactical choice you sometimes must take, I don't see anything wrong in that. Corner of the corridor is usually enough, you don't need ASC to do that. There TO works just fine, only three monsters max can get to you, one behind you, one behind summoner. There you can TO summoner and one of the creatures it summoned away or the one behind you and continue fighting.

If summoner then summons Vecna & co, you might need to bail out, but that is not because of summon, but because there is a Vecna & co there and you need to adjust your tactics accordingly.

In fact fighting anything that requires some effort in open space is a poor solution almost every case, because that leaves you vulnerable to getting surrounded by monsters you can't handle. Summons just teach you that lesson better than anything else.

[PowerDiver]

Vecna or Feagwath? No W summons that many pure L.

It was something lesser, in DL70s where I would never consider fighting either of those, probably Khamul summoning High Undead. I didn't notice a summoned unique with L escorts, but maybe there was one.

[Estie]

Summoning IS he most powerful ability the monsters have. In ToME, and maybe other variants, its about the only thing that has to be worried about in the endgame. In vanilla too you can reach a level of power where anything that doesnt summon is trivial to defeat. Some variants (Sang) dont give you that kind of defensive abilities.
I have been wondering: is there another alternative than forcing the player to face a multitude of opponents or risking instant death to keep up a danger level ? I think I prefer the Sang situation over the ToME "only summoning matters". But then again, being able to get unkillable is kindof the best part of this game.

[buzzkill]

First it was insta-death (under attack), now it's summons. There are plenty of ways to avoid both and most are easily obtainable and relatively fail-safe. What, are you supposed to be beaten to death by a single opponent with no big attacks. We have to leave the baddies with some way to kill the player.

IMO, while the game can still be beaten, if only once, without abusing it's exploits, then it's not too hard.

[Estie]

This is not about game difficulty. Its about the endgame, which has a tendency to become stale and drawn-out. In my humble opinion, nethack got ruined the day they disabled level teleporting while wearing the amulet, but thats another story.

When you have reached a high enough level, maxed important stats and got a good kit, there is no more danger of getting one shot killed. This is as it should be. So what is left to make life dangerous ? For one, getting disabled (confusion, blindness,...). This also can be taken care of in vanilla by having the appropriate high resists. The other is getting forced into fights at unfavourable odds - by summoning. Detection/ESP make sure you dont land in such situations accidentally.

Now any challenging gameplay would have to involve summoning. This is not enough to base a long game on. I say this after having played ToME post killing Morgoth.
However, there is no need for that at all. The aim of the game, after all, is killing M. So yes, you can get to this state of almost immortality, but then there is no reason not to face off M and end it. In other words, the challenge is to get there. If you make it, you win and start a new character from scratch - no need to spend lengthy time in the dungeon with a godlike character. Yet in other words - while yes the endgame might be boring, its also short.

[PowerDiver]

In vanilla too you can reach a level of power where anything that doesnt summon is trivial to defeat. Some variants (Sang) dont give you that kind of defensive abilities.
I have been wondering: is there another alternative than forcing the player to face a multitude of opponents or risking instant death to keep up a danger level ?

The obvious alternative is to accept that the game is essentially over at that point. If you think that makes the game too short, change things so it takes longer to reach that power level.