Gold and no_selling

[ewert]

That sounds simple enough okay. Thats a one in 10000 chance of hitting a nice "ego-gold-drop". One in a million for a wad of cash. Those will happen. Not too often, but definitely will. That one in a million will give bout enough cash for rest of the game consumables, but still won't always be enough for a ?Acq in black market (need to be a bit deeper for that). One in 100mil chance for ... well lots of gold.

I still don't see the point in having an openended gold drop variance, but atleast if the average is sorted out it isn't that bad.

[Sirridan]

x8 seems about right honestly. However, in the *early* game, no_selling is *much* easier, but by the 20's and down, it seems about the same, maybe no_selling being easier. Possibly x6 or 7 would work too.

BTW I hit variance mini-jackpot a few times, 2 piles of adamant worth 6-8k each below level 10

[PowerDiver]

Been trying no_selling with a x12 multiplier that Eddie suggested earlier, works pretty well, but gold spikes can be even *higher* than having selling on, I'll go with x8 and see how that goes.

In any case, glad it's finally an option at least

Money should occasionally be higher with no_selling than with selling. If it is always less, it cannot possibly be equivalent.

To be clear, I think there is too much money in the game currently. However, I think that exposing people, particularly newish players, to no_selling is sufficiently important that there should be no penalty for using it.

I don't even remember suggesting the x12 number any more, but suppose that is equivalent to the money you gather with selling. In that case, I would probably be happy to see sales prices reduced to 1/3 of what they are now for games with selling and a corresponding no_selling multiplier of about x4. It's hard to say anything with any certainty when we have so little experience with the new drop formula.

[PowerDiver]

I've been playing a mix of 309, 320, and 330dev since the no_selling change. There is now more gold with no_selling than there was with my old patched 309, and less gold than with selling in any of them. I get enough money to buy stuff, but not so much that I'd pay the black market 5K to learn a flavor. That makes it a decent first stab, I guess.

There is too much cash at the beginning with no_selling, particularly town and DL1. The money from selling does not start pouring in until DL5 or so, when you start selling wands. Perhaps the multiplier should not kick in until DL5. OTOH, I'd also prefer to see gold drops removed from town entirely, but I don't know how popular that would be.

For the next step after addressing the first few levels, I think that money from selling should be reduced to be more in line with no_selling. It would be useful to use the sim code to compare, but it's not clear how many slots to assume are available for selling or how many DLs per trip. As a first stab, I'd suggest that store owners should never pay more than 1/3 what they will sell the item for.

[Derakon]

OTOH, I'd also prefer to see gold drops removed from town entirely, but I don't know how popular that would be.

I'm inclined to agree with this. The only useful drops you should get in town IMO are from Farmer Maggot (unless you count selling broken daggers at 1AU apiece "useful"). If you don't have enough money to afford something, go into the dungeon and risk it not being there when you get back.

As a first stab, I'd suggest that store owners should never pay more than 1/3 what they will sell the item for.

This strikes me as over-generous, actually, but we'll see.

[pampl]

For the next step after addressing the first few levels, I think that money from selling should be reduced to be more in line with no_selling.

If people want to spend more time playing the town game they shouldn't be penalized for it. Gold earned/unit of time from selling should at least equal no_selling, which means selling should always generate more money per unit of time in the dungeon as they spend less time there. Otherwise you're eliminating the whole point of selling and shouldn't even have it as an option.

It seems to me that most of the people who play no_selling are experienced and want the game to be harder. I don't understand why no_selling should be made easier than the playstyle generally preferred by newer and worse players.

[camlost]

If people want to spend more time playing the town game they shouldn't be penalized for it. Gold earned/unit of time from selling should at least equal no_selling, which means selling should always generate more money per unit of time in the dungeon as they spend less time there. Otherwise you're eliminating the whole point of selling and shouldn't even have it as an option.

It seems to me that most of the people who play no_selling are experienced and want the game to be harder. I don't understand why no_selling should be made easier than the playstyle generally preferred by newer and worse players.

Well, as someone who implemented no_selling as a default feature in a variant, I can say that I wanted the game to be more fun, not harder. I want people to not have to make item runs, or slow themselves with goods to sell to the store. That smacks of work, at least to me.

[NotMorgoth]

Well, as someone who implemented no_selling as a default feature in a variant, I can say that I wanted the game to be more fun, not harder. I want people to not have to make item runs, or slow themselves with goods to sell to the store. That smacks of work, at least to me.

As someone who plays a variant with no-selling as a default, I can say that I find this makes mining treasure veins essential in the early to midgame, which is a similar level of work (but more predictable in outcome.)

[camlost]

As someone who plays a variant with no-selling as a default, I can say that I find this makes mining treasure veins essential in the early to midgame, which is a similar level of work (but more predictable in outcome.)

I guess I don't spend as much money as you, but I do kill drunks for their gold, which helps a lot. And mining only takes 1 slot, and keeps a player in the dungeon, at least.

[PowerDiver]

If people want to spend more time playing the town game they shouldn't be penalized for it. Gold earned/unit of time from selling should at least equal no_selling, which means selling should always generate more money per unit of time in the dungeon as they spend less time there. Otherwise you're eliminating the whole point of selling and shouldn't even have it as an option.

It seems to me that most of the people who play no_selling are experienced and want the game to be harder. I don't understand why no_selling should be made easier than the playstyle generally preferred by newer and worse players.

Even with 1/3 current selling prices and x5 the recently increased gold drops, I believe there will still be more money from selling.

It's not about harder. It's about better game flow and more fun.

If I play with selling, the primary thought I have when I pick up an item is how much does it sell for. If I play with no selling, my only thought is how can I use it. It is a huge improvement.

It is pretty well accepted [back in the days of rgra anyway] that there is too much money in the game. Changing that has been on the back burner until gold drops were addressed. It appears gold drops are being addressed now, so this seems the time to address money in the game.

[camlost]

It's not about harder. It's about better game flow and more fun.

If I play with selling, the primary thought I have when I pick up an item is how much does it sell for. If I play with no selling, my only thought is how can I use it. It is a huge improvement.

Yes, this is what I was trying to convey. I agree 100%.

[NotMorgoth]

Yes, this is what I was trying to convey. I agree 100%.

I am still cautiously neutral on the issue - though note I have not gone back to selling even though it is available as an option.

One thing it does is make scrolls and staffs of treasure location useful.

What I do find is that with no-selling I will not even bother picking up or identifying 95% of weapons and armour in the early game, until I have _Perception, as they are unlikely to be better than what I already have.

Other thoughts I have about it are Sangband-specific so probably not appropriate here.

[Magnate]

I've been playing a mix of 309, 320, and 330dev since the no_selling change. There is now more gold with no_selling than there was with my old patched 309, and less gold than with selling in any of them. I get enough money to buy stuff, but not so much that I'd pay the black market 5K to learn a flavor. That makes it a decent first stab, I guess.

Praise indeed!

There is too much cash at the beginning with no_selling, particularly town and DL1. The money from selling does not start pouring in until DL5 or so, when you start selling wands. Perhaps the multiplier should not kick in until DL5. OTOH, I'd also prefer to see gold drops removed from town entirely, but I don't know how popular that would be.

I'm agnostic about town gold drops, but I have also noticed the extra early money. Happy to have the multiplier equal to dlev for the first five levels and see how that goes (just put this into staging, so it should be in nightlies soon).

For the next step after addressing the first few levels, I think that money from selling should be reduced to be more in line with no_selling. It would be useful to use the sim code to compare, but it's not clear how many slots to assume are available for selling or how many DLs per trip. As a first stab, I'd suggest that store owners should never pay more than 1/3 what they will sell the item for.

Yep, tried this too as a first go. I think there will still be plenty of money from selling.

[fph]

OTOH, I'd also prefer to see gold drops removed from town entirely, but I don't know how popular that would be.

Would that include Farmer "get one good item for free" Maggot? Count me in. The whole town mini-game has always looked silly to me --- with street urchins on the top of the list.

[Derakon]

Maggot should keep his drop. He's a major part of flavor for the game, and you can't really abuse him because he only lives once.