Gold and no_selling

[Sirridan]

I'm running HE Mages right now, since I'm currently obsessed with winning one. ANYWAY, I've been running with no_selling on, since it is a good feeling not to have to lug stuff back to town to get gold, however I find myself *very* short on gold, where I can't even get my basic consumables sometimes.

Also the RNG taunts me with bos for around 25k all the time, when I could sell one or two things to get it...

So is it this bad for a while, or is it the game telling me I need to just rush down to around dlvl 40+? I did find myself coming back with 4k+ instead of 500 around there.

[mbell999]

I also feel gold drops should be increased for no_selling. My latest paladin is at DL88 right now and still only has 13k gold. Usually I'd be at 100k+ right now with selling. My recent dungeon trips have been bringing back about 4-8k each.

[Derakon]

They should be tripled if you have no_selling on.

[PowerDiver]

They should be tripled if you have no_selling on.

That's nowhere near enough, especially now that a longbow costs close to 1000 rather than close to 150. Unless 3.2 money drops increased over 3.1 when I wasn't looking.

I believe that even tripled 3.1 money drops does not produce as much as single money drops in 3.0. I thought the 3.0 money drops should to be tripled or quadrupled with no selling back when I playtested it extensively. It is possible to get by with less, but that seemed like what the game felt designed for.

Maybe the game is better with less money, but [playing with selling] money in 3.1 was much higher than it was in 3.0, so things have been moving in the opposite direction. That makes such a change even more jarring.

It's a shame the attack on junk also resulted in so many fewer money drops.

So long as I am ranting, I remember in 3.0 killing the Lernean hydra for maybe 10 drops averaging 300 each. Perhaps my memory is exaggerated, but that's what I remember. The last few times I checked after killing it in 3.1 I got 1 drop each [might that be due to new money stacking rules?] averaging less than 250. It might as well not have a drop at all.

[camlost]

When S picked up no_selling, I started from Eddie's suggestion of 4-5 times as much. S currently ranges from 2.5x to 5.5x depending on depth, and players complain about being tight on money.

[Lord Fell]

I guess the question is "what do you expect to get out of the no-sell option?"

I haven't tried it... but I thought a major part of the trade-off was that you didn't have to worry about Loot Encumbrance -everything you carry is either gear or a consumable you use for furthering your Dive. It makes sense to me that your character would just not acquire as much gold.

Having to pick & choose what you're going to haul back to town, as well as deal with the increased encumbrance of the stuff you don't want to use (but do want to sell) can be a chore, but it's rewarded with increased cash.

To my mind the no_sell option translates to "limited cash-flow," and the results you're describing is pretty much what I expected. If your contention is that it's too limited, I can't comment on that.

[Magnate]

Money drops *are* tripled if no_selling is on, but I hadn't realised that 3.1 reduced money drops from what they were in 3.0. I also hadn't realised that Eddie's original no_selling version was based on those higher money drops. It could be that this means it's now too limited - but yes, money is always going to be tight in the early game with no_selling on, that's kind of the point.

I will try x5 and see if that closes the gap enough.

[fizzix]

Money drops *are* tripled if no_selling is on, but I hadn't realised that 3.1 reduced money drops from what they were in 3.0. I also hadn't realised that Eddie's original no_selling version was based on those higher money drops. It could be that this means it's now too limited - but yes, money is always going to be tight in the early game with no_selling on, that's kind of the point.

I will try x5 and see if that closes the gap enough.

Here are some stats for select levels with no-selling on (current 3x value) Stats do not include gold gotten from digging as I've been too lazy to add that to the sim yet.

Level 1: total gold:    110.130000 From Monsters 11.610000

Level 10: total gold:    565.380000 From Monsters 404.010000

level 25: total gold:    1348.920000 From Monsters 1002.810000

level 40: total gold:    3211.560000 From Monsters 2730.630000

level 65: total gold:    5639.760000 From Monsters 4844.340000

level 80: total gold:    10159.950000 From Monsters 9118.200000

level 99: total gold:    12518.010000 From Monsters 11255.370000

So, currently clearing out lvl 10 of all monsters nets you less gold than picking up a wand of sleep/slow/confuse monsters. At lvl 40 you get less gold from the entire level than say 2 slay weapons. (expected value of slays at this level is 1.2). Lvl 80 has less gold than a high quality ego (HA, Def, West etc.) which have near an expected value of 1.

5x isn't enough. You need something like 10x. BUT picking up 400 gold on lvl 1 without digging is too much. So you can't just use a linear multiplier either. 3x for dlvl 1 is fine. 5x for dlevel 10 and 10x for dlevel 20 looks good.

[Magnate]

Here are some stats for select levels with no-selling on (current 3x value) Stats do not include gold gotten from digging as I've been too lazy to add that to the sim yet.

Level 1: total gold:    110.130000 From Monsters 11.610000

Level 10: total gold:    565.380000 From Monsters 404.010000

level 25: total gold:    1348.920000 From Monsters 1002.810000

level 40: total gold:    3211.560000 From Monsters 2730.630000

level 65: total gold:    5639.760000 From Monsters 4844.340000

level 80: total gold:    10159.950000 From Monsters 9118.200000

level 99: total gold:    12518.010000 From Monsters 11255.370000

So, currently clearing out lvl 10 of all monsters nets you less gold than picking up a wand of sleep/slow/confuse monsters. At lvl 40 you get less gold from the entire level than say 2 slay weapons. (expected value of slays at this level is 1.2). Lvl 80 has less gold than a high quality ego (HA, Def, West etc.) which have near an expected value of 1.

5x isn't enough. You need something like 10x. BUT picking up 400 gold on lvl 1 without digging is too much. So you can't just use a linear multiplier either. 3x for dlvl 1 is fine. 5x for dlevel 10 and 10x for dlevel 20 looks good.

I think we need a way to proof this formula against future fluctuations in shop prices. Something like:

dl1 & 2 should provide enough to buy a shortbow

dls 3-10 should provide enough to buy a longbow and an enchant scroll (or two)

dls 11-20 should provide enough to buy a minor ego weapon (dagger of slay evil or similar) and a half dozen !CCW

etc. etc. If we can agree what this list should look like, it's possible to code the drop routine to use current prices as a guide, suitably broken down and randomised.

Anyone care to write a list of 10-15 breakpoints at which you expect to be able to afford to buy certain combinations of stuff? Not that I support the game of shopping, of course, but the idea of a challenge option being too hard is intolerable ...

[fizzix]

Anyone care to write a list of 10-15 breakpoints at which you expect to be able to afford to buy certain combinations of stuff? Not that I support the game of shopping, of course, but the idea of a challenge option being too hard is intolerable ...

Sure, but you are going to get a lot of play style variations here... Here's mine:

dlevel 10: Enough to buy 2 WoR scrolls for the next trip, and maybe a couple healing pots or MB2 if you are a caster.

dlevel 20: enough for a sling, and any ?teleport, ?tlevel, ?dd should they appear in the BM. (MB3 for full caster)

dlevel 25: Enough for _teleport and a short stack of !CCW.

dlevel 40: Enough to "buy to ID" all the magic shop wands and staves that you haven't discovered yet. (MB4 for full caster) Enough for -TO, _speed, _destruct if they show up in the BM.

dlevel 50: Enough for 1 stat gain potion in the BM and any ?banish, ?mass banish, ?destruction that might arise.

After that I don't care much. I almost never have enough money to afford a launcher, forget about enchant scrolls to get it up to +9/+9. I'll find one in the dungeon way before that.

[ewert]

Dudes ...

Touting my own horn here, but I already went through this and I think already mentioned it in one thread as well, as soon as I noticed you didn't change the base gold formula for 3.2.

Remove the whole stupid "infinite variance" part, first off. Second, try these values for a base to start tweaking from. Has worked okay for me for the "pre-endgamelevels". When you start clearing pits of dragons for breakfast, because you are "going up to sell all the time" comparitively speaking, you start to amass lots of gold, but early/midgame it has worked for me (and fizzix I think, yes?)

void make_gold(object_type *j_ptr, int lev, int coin_type)
{
	int sval;
	int k_idx;
	s32b avg, spread, value;

	/* This average is 20 at dlev0, 105 at dlev40, 220 at dlev100. */
	/* Follows the formula: y=2x+20 */
	avg = 2 * lev + 20;
	spread = lev + 10;

	/* With no_selling, increase gold drops */
	if (OPT(adult_no_selling)) 
	{
		avg = 10 * lev + 50;
		spread = 5 * lev + 25;
	}

	value = rand_spread(avg, spread);

	/* Pick a treasure variety scaled by level, or force a type */
	if (coin_type != SV_GOLD_ANY)
		sval = coin_type;
	else
		sval = (((value * 100) / MAX_GOLD_DROP) * SV_GOLD_MAX) / 100;

	/* Do not create illegal treasure types */
	if (sval >= SV_GOLD_MAX) sval = SV_GOLD_MAX - 1;

	/* Prepare a gold object */
	k_idx = lookup_kind(TV_GOLD, sval);
	object_prep(j_ptr, k_idx, lev, RANDOMISE);
	j_ptr->pval = value;
}

[ewert]

I also have money created from treasure veins be 3x the dungeon lvl, so going for veins in early/midgame is quite worth the trouble.

[fizzix]

Dudes ...



Remove the whole stupid "infinite variance" part, first off. Second, try these values for a base to start tweaking from. Has worked okay for me for the "pre-endgamelevels". When you start clearing pits of dragons for breakfast, because you are "going up to sell all the time" comparitively speaking, you start to amass lots of gold, but early/midgame it has worked for me (and fizzix I think, yes?)

If I remember correctly, early game drops were too high. This was most evident in the town where I was getting 100 gold drops from aimless merchants. After dlevel 10 or so, ewert's formula works well.

[Timo Pietilä]

I also have money created from treasure veins be 3x the dungeon lvl, so going for veins in early/midgame is quite worth the trouble.

That's actually one thing I mean to write about. Treasures in veins were too weak for the effort of digging. They should be worth more. I'm glad to hear that they are being worked on.

[ewert]

If I remember correctly, early game drops were too high. This was most evident in the town where I was getting 100 gold drops from aimless merchants. After dlevel 10 or so, ewert's formula works well.

Yeah forgot about the town drops. However, since drops at low dlvls are quite rare (sometimes feels like there is more veins than normal gold drops), it might even suffice to make the town level much less.

Actually, the static bonus could probably be just removed or changed to minuscule amounts ... it's not a big deal after a few levels, and it is the one that messes up town and the very few first levels (<10).

So maybe:

avg = 2 * lev + 5;
spread = lev + 2;

/* With no_selling, increase gold drops */
if (OPT(adult_no_selling)) 
{
	avg = 10 * lev + 5;
	spread = 5 * lev + 2;

Or something.