Gold and no_selling

[d_m]

So, if we agree on the logic, we simply disagree on the choice. I want no_selling to be balanced for mice, you want it to be balanced for rats. That's not a difficulty option per se - it doesn't change the difficulty at all for mouse players. It's just unfriendly to rat players - which is why it's an option.

I think the clear answer is to balance gold drops for chipmunks!

[PowerDiver]

Newbies tend not to start toggling options away from their defaults until they're no longer newbies.

Anyway, your post is interesting because the multiplier *is* currently x5, and still you think it's a factor of 17 out. My current game is progressing smoothly even without the fix to the variance - I found about 2.5k gp in the first ten levels *without clearing* any levels.

There is a lot of sound and fury from people who like collecting a lot of money by selling stuff. It's an option folks - if you like to sell stuff for money, then don't turn selling off FFS. It is nonsensical to suggest that no_selling has to provide the same amount of money as compulsive recalling-when-backpack-is-full-to-sell-stuff.

(1) Hopefully no selling will become the default, and newbies will use it until they complain they want to do something with junk. Then they'll try selling for a game or two and then go back to no selling.

(2) I wasn't playing using no selling. Is it not obvious when I post about the sales prices? I sold, after a single trip, for 17 times as much as I picked up with the fixed gold drops. In terms of the previous 3.2 drops, that's presumably a factor of 85. Now you can see why I thought changing from x3 to x5 was so pathetic with those money drops.

(3) THIS WAS NOT COMPULSIVE RECALLING. A single trip down to DL10. Fully clearing every level, except for the occasional trap door. What didn't fit in the pack had to go.

Using a gold multiplier of x5 is a definite reduction in money on average versus selling. I'd guess it needs to be around x10 for equality, but that's just a guess and it might be higher than that. OTOH, I think it is better to get your items from the dungeon than to buy them, so I don't mind less money so long as you reach some minimal thresholds.

[edit] Using your terms, this experiement was playing like mice.

[Timo Pietilä]

(1) Hopefully no selling will become the default, and newbies will use it until they complain they want to do something with junk. Then they'll try selling for a game or two and then go back to no selling.

This description of yours tells quite well what happens in early levels, however that doesn't apply very well in deeper levels. Deeper your item selling money gain slows down to practical halt, and there is actually a breakpoint in money gain in early levels (wand-depths are about x100 more lucrative than levels before that).

With no-selling and constant increase in money drops you might actually hit the point where money drops become greater than item sold could give you. It has a different curve shape.

This is all guesswork in my part, I haven't actually played no-selling games.

[Magnate]

(1) Hopefully no selling will become the default, and newbies will use it until they complain they want to do something with junk. Then they'll try selling for a game or two and then go back to no selling.

(2) I wasn't playing using no selling. Is it not obvious when I post about the sales prices? I sold, after a single trip, for 17 times as much as I picked up with the fixed gold drops. In terms of the previous 3.2 drops, that's presumably a factor of 85. Now you can see why I thought changing from x3 to x5 was so pathetic with those money drops.

(3) THIS WAS NOT COMPULSIVE RECALLING. A single trip down to DL10. Fully clearing every level, except for the occasional trap door. What didn't fit in the pack had to go.

Using a gold multiplier of x5 is a definite reduction in money on average versus selling. I'd guess it needs to be around x10 for equality, but that's just a guess and it might be higher than that. OTOH, I think it is better to get your items from the dungeon than to buy them, so I don't mind less money so long as you reach some minimal thresholds.

[edit] Using your terms, this experiement was playing like mice.

I realise that - sorry for the confusion. You are saying that you think we need x10 for equality with mice, when we're currently at x5.

no_selling won't be the default for 3.2, but hopefully a later version.

[ewert]

Timo, dlvl 30 versus 90, the gold drops are on avg three times. The amount of high egos in those levels is probably higher by more than factor of three. Either way, end game should be ignored. Balance matters more till maxed stats, maybe. Mostly to 40-50 dlvl I swagly surmise.

As for mice and rats... Being a mouse is selflimiting compared to ratting. Ratting is tedious. Oh and when I rat, it is 1-2 lvls per recall. Of course not after have enough gold, but in early game. Basing gold on a mouser, and thinking 30% of that is cool, is... Well, not cool in my books.

As PD said though, the difference is still off by a massive amount even compared to a mouse. Remember, ONE item by dlvl30 and statgain region can give 30k, and those of 10k+ are common. (high egos)

[Timo Pietilä]

As for mice and rats... Being a mouse is selflimiting compared to ratting. Ratting is tedious.

Ok, I didn't understand one bit of that part of your text. Ratting? Mice? What?

[ewert]

Magnate terms for compulsive item selling (rat, packrat, verb for fun of ratting). Mouse for just picking the best items for sale. Playing as mouse is imho selflimiting, like squelching ammo and not using archery, and thus imho not the best base for choosing game balance from for no-selling.

[PowerDiver]

no_selling won't be the default for 3.2, but hopefully a later version.

Why not? Takkaria knows it is right, so it's time for an executive decision. The only reason I can see to put it off is to decide if the multiplier should be higher, but that can be adjusted by the time 3.2.2v1 comes out.

[Magnate]

Magnate terms for compulsive item selling (rat, packrat, verb for fun of ratting). Mouse for just picking the best items for sale. Playing as mouse is imho selflimiting, like squelching ammo and not using archery, and thus imho not the best base for choosing game balance from for no-selling.

Well, the alternative view is that rat-like play is completely unintended by the game's designers and should be discouraged, and mouse-like play is normal and should be encouraged.

ewert: you will note that PowerDiver also frequently criticises the selling prices of armour and weapons, as they are significantly higher than they were pre-3.1 - I do not think you should take his criticisms of no_selling as support for ratting.

[Magnate]

Why not? Takkaria knows it is right, so it's time for an executive decision. The only reason I can see to put it off is to decide if the multiplier should be higher, but that can be adjusted by the time 3.2.2v1 comes out.

Interesting. Takkaria is extremely democratic, and I suspect wants to introduce it gently to avoid upsetting too many rats, who will then have to turn it off. It's also a radical departure from the original f-k design, so perhaps he also wants to wait out of respect for Timo ...

[Timo Pietilä]

Interesting. Takkaria is extremely democratic, and I suspect wants to introduce it gently to avoid upsetting too many rats, who will then have to turn it off. It's also a radical departure from the original f-k design, so perhaps he also wants to wait out of respect for Timo ...

I'm a bit two-ways in this. I like to able to sell things, but I also would like to be able to buy things without needing to sell things. Maybe severe inflation of prices for selling and raised money drops would match my taste best. Maybe something like 1/4 of item purchase value with 18/220 CHR.

Either way I'm happy, selling is not important to me. Buying is. I have quite strong opinions what should and what should not be in stores, I don't care much for selling stuff.

BTW. Maybe we should add a Mathom house to the town to retire artifacts we don't need anymore with no-selling.

[Magnate]

I'm a bit two-ways in this. I like to able to sell things, but I also would like to be able to buy things without needing to sell things. Maybe severe inflation of prices for selling and raised money drops would match my taste best. Maybe something like 1/4 of item purchase value with 18/220 CHR.

Either way I'm happy, selling is not important to me. Buying is. I have quite strong opinions what should and what should not be in stores, I don't care much for selling stuff.

BTW. Maybe we should add a Mathom house to the town to retire artifacts we don't need anymore with no-selling.

You mean deflation of selling prices, right? i.e. you get much less from selling. That's been suggested often and I think will probably happen in 3.3 - unless selling is turned off altogether.

The mathom house / museum has been suggested before too - it's only a matter of time until someone puts it up on git for pulling.

[Sirridan]

Been trying no_selling with a x12 multiplier that Eddie suggested earlier, works pretty well, but gold spikes can be even *higher* than having selling on, I'll go with x8 and see how that goes.

In any case, glad it's finally an option at least

[ewert]

Been trying no_selling with a x12 multiplier that Eddie suggested earlier, works pretty well, but gold spikes can be even *higher* than having selling on, I'll go with x8 and see how that goes.

In any case, glad it's finally an option at least

Spikes, I'm guessing that is the "wonderful" variance part of the code, winkwink. I think earlier, when gold drops were minuscule, nobody noticed even a 50x or heck a 100x gold drop versus the median "avg" drops. Now with no_selling and trying to get a good gold drop value overall, suddenly a 100x drop goes "pop wtf just happened". =P

I still vote to nix the variance part of the formula ... Or add a chance for megadrops outside the base average defining formula, so the avg formula can be done sensibly first.

[takkaria]

Spikes, I'm guessing that is the "wonderful" variance part of the code, winkwink. I think earlier, when gold drops were minuscule, nobody noticed even a 50x or heck a 100x gold drop versus the median "avg" drops. Now with no_selling and trying to get a good gold drop value overall, suddenly a 100x drop goes "pop wtf just happened". =P

I still vote to nix the variance part of the formula ... Or add a chance for megadrops outside the base average defining formula, so the avg formula can be done sensibly first.

Variance is different in 3.2:

    /* Increase the range to infinite, moving the average to 110% */
    while (one_in_(100) && value * 10 <= MAX_SHORT)
        value *= 10;

So that sometimes you hit the jackpot, but most of the time variance won't kick in.