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  • Derakon
    Prophet
    • Dec 2009
    • 9022

    #91
    Really the only argument I can give against linearization is that I'd have to figure out where all the breakpoints are all over again because I'm used to the current system. Realistically we should probably linearize everything...and maybe get rid of the 18/220 cap while we're at it.

    Comment

    • Lord Fell
      Apprentice
      • Oct 2010
      • 89

      #92
      The 18/%% system was incorporated for the AD&D "Unearthed Arcana" supplement, for the Cavalier character class, for Strength, Dexterity and Constitution. I don't entirely remember how it worked, but I believe that they could gain a d10 to their percentile stat every time they leveled... allowing them to increase their physical stats "to human perfection" as they gained levels. From there, it was incorporated into Strength... mostly because it was impossible to tell which of two meaty, 18 Strength warriors was actually stronger.

      I should think that since D&D shelved percentile strength stats back around '99, Angband doesn't really have a historical reason to use it anymore either.

      Comment

      • Timo Pietilä
        Prophet
        • Apr 2007
        • 4096

        #93
        Originally posted by Lord Fell
        I should think that since D&D shelved percentile strength stats back around '99, Angband doesn't really have a historical reason to use it anymore either.
        18 + 22 gives nice round number of 40 as max stat. 18 is 18, 23 is 18/50, 28 is 18/100, 38 is 18/200. Quite easy to remember basic breakpoints.

        If someone would make a poll I would vote for removal of 18/xxx system.

        Comment

        • Magnate
          Angband Devteam member
          • May 2007
          • 5110

          #94
          Originally posted by PowerDiver
          No, increments haven't changed. I went from 18 to 18/14 to 18/04 to 18/03.
          Ok. Fortunately this was an easy fix, and should be in nightlies shortly.
          "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

          Comment

          • Magnate
            Angband Devteam member
            • May 2007
            • 5110

            #95
            Originally posted by Lord Fell
            The 18/%% system was incorporated for the AD&D "Unearthed Arcana" supplement, for the Cavalier character class, for Strength, Dexterity and Constitution. I don't entirely remember how it worked, but I believe that they could gain a d10 to their percentile stat every time they leveled... allowing them to increase their physical stats "to human perfection" as they gained levels. From there, it was incorporated into Strength... mostly because it was impossible to tell which of two meaty, 18 Strength warriors was actually stronger.
            You have it backwards. The original 1E Players Handbook had percentile STR for Fighters, Paladins and Rangers only, and only for a base STR of 18. Unearthed Arcana, which was released nearly a decade later, added percentiles for other stats for the Cavalier and Paladin, but the implementation was different. There was no difference between a stat of 14 and one of 14/99, it was simply a mechanism of allowing those classes to increase their stats on level-up (by 2d10 percentage points).

            That's my recollection of ~25 years ago, anyway.

            There is already a ticket to linearise the stats, btw, so there's no real disagreement about this. It's just a matter of priority - it's a largely cosmetic change, so it's always going to get put off if something more important or exciting needs doing.
            "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

            Comment

            • nppangband
              NPPAngband Maintainer
              • Dec 2008
              • 926

              #96
              Just a quick note to say that the changes of fractal blows and the new multipliers for ranged attacks (arrows/bolts/etc...) are brilliant. I haven't had a chance to look at the rest of the changes, but those are great ideas.
              NPPAngband current home page: http://nppangband.bitshepherd.net/
              Source code repository:
              https://github.com/nppangband/NPPAngband_QT
              Downloads:
              https://app.box.com/s/1x7k65ghsmc31usmj329pb8415n1ux57

              Comment

              • Derakon
                Prophet
                • Dec 2009
                • 9022

                #97
                Fractal blows!

                You hit the kobold. -more-
                You hit the kobold. -more-
                You hit the kobold. -more-
                ...
                You hit the kobold. -more-
                ...

                Comment

                • EpicMan
                  Swordsman
                  • Dec 2009
                  • 455

                  #98
                  +1 to linearize the stats. I have a half-made variant of Hengband where I switched to linear stats, it wasn't very difficult or time-consuming.

                  I'll install Git and see if I can whip up a patch for this.

                  Comment

                  • Derakon
                    Prophet
                    • Dec 2009
                    • 9022

                    #99
                    The main thing with linearized stats is that we'd need to rework stat gain post-18. If you assign 18/10 => 19, 18/20 => 20, etc, then currently characters zip through the area between 18 and 27 unusually quickly, and then it takes several potions to hit 28 (speaking about internal stats here). Ideally IMO each potion should correspond to a single point gain. Certainly you shouldn't drink a potion and see no apparent improvement -- going from 18/90 to 18/95 would seem to do nothing with linearized stats.

                    Comment

                    • Magnate
                      Angband Devteam member
                      • May 2007
                      • 5110

                      Originally posted by Derakon
                      The main thing with linearized stats is that we'd need to rework stat gain post-18. If you assign 18/10 => 19, 18/20 => 20, etc, then currently characters zip through the area between 18 and 27 unusually quickly, and then it takes several potions to hit 28 (speaking about internal stats here). Ideally IMO each potion should correspond to a single point gain. Certainly you shouldn't drink a potion and see no apparent improvement -- going from 18/90 to 18/95 would seem to do nothing with linearized stats.
                      This is actually pretty trivial - you need to *remove* code from player_inc_stat() that messes around with d10 rolls, and just add 1 in all cases.
                      "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

                      Comment

                      • EpicMan
                        Swordsman
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 455

                        With linear stats you just remove the checks for if the stat is >= 18 so it always behaves like stats from 3-18. Ninja'd. Oh well.

                        Comment

                        • Dean Anderson
                          Adept
                          • Nov 2009
                          • 193

                          I'd prefer the "percentages" to be dropped, but I also like that at high levels potions have lesser effect.

                          So my ideal solution (and I used this in Cthangband) was to leave the underlying value with the same 3-118 range and leave bonuses as they are, but simply change the display code so that instead of displaying anything above 18 as percentages, it instead gets displayed as whole numbers up to 40.

                          It's a really trivial change to make, and doesn't affect any kind of game balance because all that's changing is the way numbers are displayed.

                          Comment

                          • PowerDiver
                            Prophet
                            • Mar 2008
                            • 2820

                            Originally posted by PowerDiver
                            I was resting to recharge an unided rod so I could test it on a trap, and got the message that my rod of disarming had recharged. Sure enough, a rod of disarming in my pack. I am nearly certain [what a meaningless phrase!] it was unaware before the message.

                            Has this already been reported? I vaguely remember reading something similar, but couldn't find anything searching the forum on various words starting recharg nor clicking on the new bugs link on trac.
                            I have been unable to reproduce this.

                            Comment

                            • Magnate
                              Angband Devteam member
                              • May 2007
                              • 5110

                              Originally posted by PowerDiver
                              I have been unable to reproduce this.
                              Excellent, thank you for the update. We have only two known bugs left and then 3.2 can be released.

                              The double-tile-breaks-macros thing we have diagnosed: the redraw mega-hack in screen_load(). It's just a case of thinking up a solution that doesn't break big tiles.

                              The p-not-recognising-inscriptions thing is easily fixable, but we've decided to unify the p and m commands to sort it properly. Priests and paladins have no fear: the class pref files will automatically map p to m, so your muscle memory (and inscriptions) will work fine.

                              So hopefully we'll be releasing some time in the next couple of days, unless any more major bugs arise.
                              "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

                              Comment

                              • Nick
                                Vanilla maintainer
                                • Apr 2007
                                • 9634

                                Originally posted by Magnate
                                The double-tile-breaks-macros thing we have diagnosed: the redraw mega-hack in screen_load().
                                It's a little sad that I made so many mega-hacks they need separate names.
                                One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                                In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                                Comment

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