Calling all who play nightlies

[Estie]

Playing 3.1.2v2 for a long while now. Always with randarts and I like the changes, but most of all I like the removal of *id*. It used to be a chore to get everything identified.

A few random observations:

-Weapon:
I want at least 500 damage vs evil. Usually I find some artifact but sometimes its a high damage base ego. I rarely use the ranged option, even though the quiver has removed most of the tedium associated with it.

-Speed:
I can count on ~+10 from rings and boots. I replace those with the best available artifacts if it doesnt drop me below +30. I have never found any of these high speed + useful stat artifacts boots. I have often found high speed on some artifact for another slot though, with not much else in the way of attributes, which might or might not get used.

-Immunities: By the time i feel "ready" I have some, but never all four. The reason I value them highly is because they prevent item damage.

-Extra attacks, -shots, branding, slays on non-weapons: Not sure who says these are overly abundant in 3.1.2v2, but in my games that is certainly not the case. Apart from one game - the warrior Aberly - they never played a major role. Some games have none (or no relevant ones - while its nice that my melee attacks slay giants now, im not going sacrifice any resists for that). Others have an item, but I dont end up using it because I prefer something else in that slot. And even if I use it...it might just mean that I reach my 500 damage benchmark a bit earlier.

[fph]

What I am proposing, would allow for something like this:
Armor of Awesomeness [18, +12] (+4)
If that +4 were tied to both Constitution and Speed as it was in the previous example, it would be a straight up +4 Constitution. I'm proposing that it could be a "Quickness" bonus (which would be +4 Speed), a "Hasted" bonus (which would be +8 to Speed) or a "Speed" bonus (which would be +12 to Speed).

That's a good proposal, but I think multiple PVALs are on the developers' agenda now (i.e., the possibility to have +X to a stat and +Y on another for the same object, with X not equal to Y). They are a better long-time solution than the fix you suggested. So I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to ignore it and go directly to the multiple PVAL path.

Just my 2 cents though --- and I am not in the dev group.

[PowerDiver]

Firstly... no.
I played in "ancient times" when Speed wasn't fractional at all. +1 Speed was enormous, as it was the equivalent of +10 speed these days. I never played Angband during a time when +30 was a speed value players were likely to see (unless it is now, but I haven't yet had a character crack +10).

Secondly, you're pretty much reading my intent backwards. Looks to me like you pulled a knee-jerk reaction out of a handy bag that has all sorts of Internet Win Tools, and fired one at me without bothering to actual engage your brain. Maybe I need to be more explicit.

You're the one with the knee-jerk reaction. I meant what I said, I quoted precisely what I complained about, and my statements were clear, although they were pointed more at the randart maintainer than at you.

Speed is powerful. More than most people realize even for values such as +2.

An ego with +2 to con and speed would beat most other egos. An ego with +4 to con and speed would beat most artifacts. An ego allowing +4 con and +12 speed would be absurd.

IMO egos should not go above +4 speed, except for the specific boots of speed.

Also, I would be surprised if there is anyone who has won the game [V3.0+] who has never equipped to +30 speed [from equipment] at some point. Old advice was to get +30 from equipment before facing M. If you haven't made it past +10, you do not know what kits tend to look like in the late game.

[Timo Pietilä]

Also, I would be surprised if there is anyone who has won the game [V3.0+] who has never equipped to +30 speed [from equipment] at some point. Old advice was to get +30 from equipment before facing M.

That's more general +30 speed to Morgoth still. Doesn't need to be +30 from equipment if you have perfect saving throw which priests and paladins almost always hit (which is good because they don't have unlimited haste to speed up from +20, saving consumables).

Anyway, my current char has over 30 speed without all three big ones or any RoS in current vanilla. Small speed boosts cumulate so item with +2 to speed times five is +10, and that leaves six slots unused.

I have Orome +4, Narya +1, Elessar +2, Gondor +3 = 10 + Cubragol and Feanor = 35.

[LostTemplar]

Speed is huge +1 speed is as powerfull as +1 to all stats at least. It is too easy to get in Vanilla.

[Magnate]

Playing 3.1.2v2 for a long while now. Always with randarts and I like the changes, but most of all I like the removal of *id*. It used to be a chore to get everything identified.

A few random observations:

-Weapon:
I want at least 500 damage vs evil. Usually I find some artifact but sometimes its a high damage base ego. I rarely use the ranged option, even though the quiver has removed most of the tedium associated with it.

-Speed:
I can count on ~+10 from rings and boots. I replace those with the best available artifacts if it doesnt drop me below +30. I have never found any of these high speed + useful stat artifacts boots. I have often found high speed on some artifact for another slot though, with not much else in the way of attributes, which might or might not get used.

-Immunities: By the time i feel "ready" I have some, but never all four. The reason I value them highly is because they prevent item damage.

-Extra attacks, -shots, branding, slays on non-weapons: Not sure who says these are overly abundant in 3.1.2v2, but in my games that is certainly not the case. Apart from one game - the warrior Aberly - they never played a major role. Some games have none (or no relevant ones - while its nice that my melee attacks slay giants now, im not going sacrifice any resists for that). Others have an item, but I dont end up using it because I prefer something else in that slot. And even if I use it...it might just mean that I reach my 500 damage benchmark a bit earlier.

Excellent - thank you for the feedback. Always nice to hear from someone who *hasn't* found any grotesque outliers, and for whom the randarts have been balanced - particularly as you have not always used one in the end and have sometimes relied on high-end egos. Interesting that you shun launchers, as these also have been occasionally overpowered even without off-weapon shots.

Item damage has been changed for 3.2, so you won't find immunities quite so important as resists now reduce item breakage quite noticeably.

[Magnate]

I meant what I said, I quoted precisely what I complained about, and my statements were clear, although they were pointed more at the randart maintainer than at you.

I sometimes think you don't realise how often I agree with you.

[Magnate]

That's a good proposal, but I think multiple PVALs are on the developers' agenda now (i.e., the possibility to have +X to a stat and +Y on another for the same object, with X not equal to Y). They are a better long-time solution than the fix you suggested. So I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to ignore it and go directly to the multiple PVAL path.

Just my 2 cents though --- and I am not in the dev group.

Multiple pvals have in fact been on the agenda for three years (ticket #571). Sangband does this well, so if it's me I will backport from there. Another dev might do it differently.

Multiple pvals would allow something like

The Foo of Splendidness (5d2) (+15, +13) (+1, +4, +7)

meaning +1 blows, +4 STR, +7 Speed. That way nothing needs to be tied to any specific ratio of anything else.

[PowerDiver]

I sometimes think you don't realise how often I agree with you.

Now you're just confusing me. I believe that:

Eddie thinks
power(+2 to speed) > power(+10 to speed) / 5

Randart guy thinks
power(+2 to speed) < power(+10 to speed) / 5

I'm pretty sure about the first one. Are you telling me I am wrong about the second?

[fizzix]

Now you're just confusing me. I believe that:

Eddie thinks
power(+2 to speed) > power(+10 to speed) / 5

Randart guy thinks
power(+2 to speed) < power(+10 to speed) / 5

I'm pretty sure about the first one. Are you telling me I am wrong about the second?

How much of a difference do you think there is. 10%? 20%? 50%?

If it's anything less than 100% difference, there are much more important factors to account for. +2 speed on an item with depth 20 is huge and worth at least 100% and probably 200% more than +2 speed on an item with depth 80. If you're not going to bother accounting for that, why bother with the difference between +2 and +10/5 Just set speed to a constant value and be done with it.

For example: I think +8 BoS are worth twice as much as +6 BoS dropped at dlevel 90. But +3 BoS dropped at dlevel 25 are probably worth more than either of those. If I wanted to make that into a formula I could, but I don't think it's worth it.

[PowerDiver]

How much of a difference do you think there is. 10%? 20%? 50%?

I'm not sure, maybe 10%, but that's not the point. I'd be happy to approximate with a fixed amount of power per point of speed. My beef is that the randart code goes out of its way to have a real bias in the opposite direction. I just checked and power(speed+10)/5 is 38% higher than power(speed+2).

[Lord Fell]

PowerDriver: You called me spoiled, and I didn't take kindly to it. If your problem is with the Rand-Art maintainer, well, that isn't me. In regards to my first post, you pounced on something that was really irrelevant to the direction I was taking the post.

As I saw it, the problem was that (specifically) Artifact Boots were never worth wearing, because ego Boots of Speed were always more beneficial. Because you can get Boots of Speed right into the double digits. Artifacts, because they have multiple powers, were generally never generated with better Speed than straight up Boots of Speed. It looks like we're in agreement that Artifacts should be better than Ego items (unless I misread your post), and I made a proposal that would hopefully correct that. I wasn't inviting a debate with anyone about how powerful speed is.

I will admit my first-hand experience of what an end-game kit is out of date. My sole win was back when it was basically mandatory to wield Ringil, because it was just about the only +Speed item.

Having multiple PVals will allow for some really interesting items and artifacts. Something like a Weapon of Brute Force (+3 Strength, -3 Intelligence) for example.

[PowerDiver]

PowerDriver: You called me spoiled, and I didn't take kindly to it

I am sorry. That wasn't meant in any way as an insult. I could have said "accustomed to" rather than "spoiled by". It would still have been incorrect, of course, but that's a separate issue. Hopefully you are not offended that I assumed you had more experience with the recent versions.

[Magnate]

I'm not sure, maybe 10%, but that's not the point. I'd be happy to approximate with a fixed amount of power per point of speed. My beef is that the randart code goes out of its way to have a real bias in the opposite direction. I just checked and power(speed+10)/5 is 38% higher than power(speed+2).

I was making a more general point about our exchanges of views. I do happen to disagree with you on this one - I believe that any high pval on a single item is worth more than the same total spread across multiple items, because it makes equipment choices demonstrably easier. Ergo a pval of 2X is worth more than twice what a pval of X is worth(*). In general - you'll notice that this is not infinite: the speed values per point tail off again eventually (just as added speed eventually becomes less useful in terms of increasing energy).

(*)Yes, this is not currently implemented for pvals other than speed.

It is interesting that Lord Fell's experiences with recent versions don't seem to include the changes which make randart boots much more likely to have +speed now, precisely in order to compete with BoS.

[Lord Fell]

PowerDiver: Thank you, and let's proceed with more interesting topics.

In terms of my Angband experience, I played it extensively years ago. My more recent experience has been downloading a couple of different versions, playing a couple of characters in a reckless fashion just to get a feel for how the game has changed, and how some of the different variants "feel."

My posting to the forums has more to do with "I like these changes" and "I don't like these changes." Some of the changes I've suggested are things I probably suggested 10 years ago, that didn't get implemented, and I'm trying my luck with a new batch of Devs. I'm trying to limit my comments to things I've actually seen (such as hating the new store menus (lack there of)).

I haven't actually played using Rand Arts at all. Back on the top of Page 2, the example was a pair of Artifact Boots which had +12 Speed and +12 Charisma. I formulated my "factored speed" suggestion based on that. I actually do think that the multiple PVal solution would be a better solution, and allow for an overall better spectrum of both Artifact and Ego items.

I mean... now I can create Armour of Yeekliness [X, +Y] (+A) (-B) Where A is Bonus Dexterity and Infravision and B is Wisdom and Charisma.