Calling all who play nightlies

[ewert]

My current mage has boots of +9spd/str.

I am blessed with cool randart boots it seems. Almost all games have useful spd/stat combos! =P

And I agree with Magnate that often a X speed / stat is relatively better than two with X/2. Now the str isn't that useful for the mage except my maxing my carry capacity very early (just entered stat gain), but still ...

[PowerDiver]

I believe that any high pval on a single item is worth more than the same total spread across multiple items, because it makes equipment choices demonstrably easier. Ergo a pval of 2X is worth more than twice what a pval of X is worth(*). In general - you'll notice that this is not infinite: the speed values per point tail off again eventually (just as added speed eventually becomes less useful in terms of increasing energy)..

I don't believe it makes choices easier. What makes choices easier is having more powerful items. The reason it is better to have =speed+10 vs two randarts with speed+5 and a couple of random resists is not that the pval is higher, but because the item is so much better.

What leads to better equipment choices, =speed+12 or Vilya?

I was going to say you are demonstrably wrong, but after thinking for a long time I can't even come up with a framework in which to pose the question, much less figure out what math to apply to get a proof. So I'll just have to resort to thumbing my nose at you.

I just realized you are saying easier choices, not better choices. Could that be our disagreement? If you have a unique choice about how to achieve speed+20, that is easy, but it may not be good.

[Magnate]

I just realized you are saying easier choices, not better choices. Could that be our disagreement? If you have a unique choice about how to achieve speed+20, that is easy, but it may not be good.

This could indeed be the problem.

Anyhow, I am so fed up with my inability to rate the power of +speed properly that I think I will try a purely linear scale between now and the obj-power rewrite and see what happens. If nothing else it will enable people to see that boots are priced more understandably.

[ewert]

I just realized you are saying easier choices, not better choices. Could that be our disagreement? If you have a unique choice about how to achieve speed+20, that is easy, but it may not be good.

Think of it in terms of Tetris if you ever played it. =P

The straight 4 part block is easily the "best" block, I would almost say unarguably. It is still just 4 parts like all the other blocks, but combining 3-4 straight blocks is soooo much easier than the complex z and s shaped ones.

Similarly, having "straight" items instead of a combination of several of similar worth overall can be much easier to fit together into "maximum" effect.

Now, whether you agree with that notion or not is another matter, but that is what I think and I surmise that Magnate thinks as well.

[Estie]

Sooo I tried the now emergency-fixed nightly. Priest, the first had her WoR robbed by a bandit on the first trip down, who then proceded to port into a room crammed with orcs. No chance to get it back, so I went deeper and died before finding another WoR.

Second one made it though:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10822

Various (known) bugs, and artifacts are created way too frequently. I found one on dlvl 1, but I seem to remember that that too is a known issue.

What does strike me is that launchers have become very expensive, a longbow costs about 1.8k. Gathering that much money before starting to dive is very tedious and I wouldnt do it _except with priests_ .

The issue here is that in the very early game, launcher is the priests only decent offensive option. So unless I m missing something, there are now the easy starters warrior and mage (warrior has str+dex and many attacks, mage has magic missile), the intermediate starters (all halfcasters can get at least somewhat viable melee) and then theres the poor priest with a very slow game before OoD kicks in. Not saying this is bad, just pointing it out.

[Derakon]

My current mage has boots of +9spd/str.

...

And I agree with Magnate that often a X speed / stat is relatively better than two with X/2. Now the str isn't that useful for the mage except my maxing my carry capacity very early (just entered stat gain), but still ...

Maxing your carrying capacity, or at the very least getting it out of the trivially-encumbered region that baby mages inhabit, is roughly equivalent to getting a few more points of speed. Definitely nothing to sneeze at.

Estie: priests are doable without a launcher from the start. The mace they start with should probably be kept since they are unlikely to get multiple blows with anything anyway, and some flasks of oil can make emergency missile weapons. If you don't find a launcher in your first two dives then you'll have enough money to buy one after that.

[Estie]

Maxing your carrying capacity, or at the very least getting it out of the trivially-encumbered region that baby mages inhabit, is roughly equivalent to getting a few more points of speed. Definitely nothing to sneeze at.

Estie: priests are doable without a launcher from the start. The mace they start with should probably be kept since they are unlikely to get multiple blows with anything anyway, and some flasks of oil can make emergency missile weapons. If you don't find a launcher in your first two dives then you'll have enough money to buy one after that.

"Doable"....bookless hobit mage is doable. Im saying they are very much harder than all the rest. Its 1 melee attack that usually misses vs at least 2 that have good chance of hitting vs 3+ from warrior. Im not convinced to stop farming money for my longbow.

As for the boots, while carrying capacity is worth alot _before_ you have speed items, once you have those boots its rather minor. The str is still nice, for to hit and damage should you opt to melee late game.

[Timo Pietilä]

The issue here is that in the very early game, launcher is the priests only decent offensive option.

You can melee. Boost your skill with bless and melee away. Easy without missile-weapons up to somewhere in 300-400' where you have OoD, and there you get enough money to buy that missile weapon (though chances are that you have already found sling or short bow by then).

[Estie]

*Sigh* I made both a gnome paladin and priest (gnome because that was my original one, I guess race doesnt matter much as long as its the same).

Priest (mace), 1.0 attacks 5.1 dam/attack = 5.1 dam at (+0, +0) melee unbuffed
Paladin (dagger), 2.3 attacks 5.5 dam/attack = 13 dam at (+2, +3) melee also unbuffed.
Both can buff themselves come level 3.

Thats double damage for the paladin, about what I expected from playing experience.

Yes, its possible to melee with a priest. I have done it before. But its _much_ slower than with a paladin, so much so that I believe farming for a bow shortens the process of getting to OoD.

[Timo Pietilä]

*Sigh* I made both a gnome paladin and priest (gnome because that was my original one, I guess race doesnt matter much as long as its the same).

Priest (mace), 1.0 attacks 5.1 dam/attack = 5.1 dam at (+0, +0) melee unbuffed
Paladin (dagger), 2.3 attacks 5.5 dam/attack = 13 dam at (+2, +3) melee also unbuffed.
Both can buff themselves come level 3.

Thats double damage for the paladin, about what I expected from playing experience.

Yes, its possible to melee with a priest. I have done it before. But its _much_ slower than with a paladin, so much so that I believe farming for a bow shortens the process of getting to OoD.

Of course melee is weaker than any warrior-class, but OTOH you get XP much faster, so you also level faster with Priests than with paladin. It's pretty close to same speed to get to 400' with both. It doesn't require bow to get there for either, and after that you have more than enough money to buy a bow if you haven't found one already.

Don't "farm" for bow, it is just slowing you down. Get to wand-depths ASAP, then you will have money to do whatever you want to do.

[PowerDiver]

Think of it in terms of Tetris if you ever played it. =P

The straight 4 part block is easily the "best" block, I would almost say unarguably. It is still just 4 parts like all the other blocks, but combining 3-4 straight blocks is soooo much easier than the complex z and s shaped ones.

We don't agree on *anything*.

The straight block is good for the easy stuff at the beginning, but at the higher difficulty levels [or as time passes] when you have a significant portion randomly filled it is a killer. I'd much rather have L pieces for their flexibility.

When you are trying to change around your kit, flexibility is key. The question is whether fixing a few slots with no choice and allowing full choice on the other slots beats no fixed choices but you sometimes have a requirement to use say 3 out 6 objects.

[ewert]

Hehe. =P

Thing is though, Angband gear is like having an empty level, and putting in blocks into empty space. Having a 4 part straight block can "decrease the width of the level", possibly making it easier to fill the rest of the space well...

Anyways, I think the true "powervalue" gain, arguable as it may in itself be, is not very big. Dunno how much extra "powervalue" current "high value single boost" is rated at, if it is lots I can see a problem, if it is a minor cost increase then for myself I could see a validity in it... then again, being minor cost increase the effect is minor, so it could just as easily not be there (the extra powercost).

[Magnate]

Hehe. =P

Thing is though, Angband gear is like having an empty level, and putting in blocks into empty space. Having a 4 part straight block can "decrease the width of the level", possibly making it easier to fill the rest of the space well...

Anyways, I think the true "powervalue" gain, arguable as it may in itself be, is not very big. Dunno how much extra "powervalue" current "high value single boost" is rated at, if it is lots I can see a problem, if it is a minor cost increase then for myself I could see a validity in it... then again, being minor cost increase the effect is minor, so it could just as easily not be there (the extra powercost).

It's not currently implemented at all except for speed, and I'm inclined to make that linear for 3.2 and see what that does to randarts.

[Estie]

More nightly, this time a mage. Found my first pair of ubar boots with +8 to speed, str and dex. I got them late though and the only effect those stats have is to increase str to max from 18-190 without boots.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10834

Edit: Oh and with the priests slow start, mage gets the price of easiest class to win with hands down.

[PowerDiver]

Oh and with the priests slow start, mage gets the price of easiest class to win with hands down.

Mage is the hardest class for the newbie, and it is pretty easy to lose on the first trip to bad luck, so that statement needs to be qualified somehow. I do agree with the sentiment.