Calling all who play nightlies

[Magnate]

Hi all,

3.2 is coming out shortly (don't hold your breath - I mean "any month now" rather than the traditional "when it's ready" - we're hoping for xmas but no guarantees).

Those who played 3.1.2v2 will know that randarts got a bit sick a bit too often (+3 shots on rings etc.). This has been addressed in nightlies - although nonweapons can still get +blows and +shots the power rating is much higher so they will be rarer and come at the expense of other powers. I'd like to use this thread to collect details of any obscene randarts SINCE r2041, i.e. nightlies only, not 3.1.2v2 or earlier. I'm sure there have been a few - and that's fine - I just want to check whether there is still a feeling that they're too common. (After 3.2 it should be much easier to monitor this once myshkin pushes his monte carlo code.)

There is an entirely separate issue that randarts in nightlies are too common (per se, independent of quality). This was an ill-judged change by me in response to some feedback that they were rarer than standarts, but the consensus is now that they weren't, and are now much more common. So I will revert this change for 3.2 (and again it will be easier to test with the monte carlo simulator).

Please try not to turn this thread into a general "please fix this for 3.2" thread. If you think a bug needs fixing, go to trac.rephial.org and click on "list of all open tickets by keywords" to see if it's already there. If not, either make a new ticket yourself (you'll need to register for an account on trac), or start a NEW thread here. Thanks. (This evening I will try and update the trac wiki to show what's due to be in 3.2 and what's being postponed.)

[fizzix]

I have not found randarts to be too overpowered. If anything they're slightly less powerful than the standart set, but not enough that I would recommend any changes. Off weapon +shots and +blows are not nearly as common anymore. They occasionally show up on rings of power, but those are pretty much the only item that should have them.

Once every three or four games I would come across one or several sets of boots with >= 10 speed and int, wis or dex. I'm not sure this is overpowered per se. These seemed a bit overpowered based on their ratings. That's really it though. I generally record the powerful randarts in my saved games on the ladder, so you can see what they were for each game.

Randarts are definitely too common now. However, I think they need to be slightly more common than standarts because you need a lot more to get a useful set. This is not necessarily bad, just an added difficulty. I would recommend no resetting the rarities back to the way they were, but more like 75% of the way there.

[ewert]

Only "problems" with randart power lately for me have been, and they are not problems since RNG might just be playing tricks:

Boots with speed and a stat. I've had quite awesome boots, like +hit+dmg +10spd/wis and a couple of resists, same game had spd/wis/resists boots too. Also spd/stealth, spd/dex etc. Maybe just rng, but considering boots of speed in themselves are usually endgame gear, those are kickass artifacts.

High dmg dice weapons are maybe bit common. Most games have artifacts whose dmg dice put the top 3 base types to shame. I'd even say all randart games, but that is skewed by randart commonness of course ...

Other than those two power type randarts, they are pretty ... random. =)

[Magnate]

Only "problems" with randart power lately for me have been, and they are not problems since RNG might just be playing tricks:

Boots with speed and a stat. I've had quite awesome boots, like +hit+dmg +10spd/wis and a couple of resists, same game had spd/wis/resists boots too. Also spd/stealth, spd/dex etc. Maybe just rng, but considering boots of speed in themselves are usually endgame gear, those are kickass artifacts.

High dmg dice weapons are maybe bit common. Most games have artifacts whose dmg dice put the top 3 base types to shame. I'd even say all randart games, but that is skewed by randart commonness of course ...

Other than those two power type randarts, they are pretty ... random. =)

Thanks both for the feedback. The boots thing is another result of me responding to feedback - in this case the feedback was that speed was too rare on randart boots and people were junking artifacts in favour of BoS (which themselves seem to be much more common since 3.1.x). This is clearly wrong so I gave randart boots a bit of a boost (not in power but simply in terms of likelihood of getting +speed pval), but again it seems I may have overdone it. This is actually very hard to tweak: if a big powerful artifact like Zarcuthra or Soulkeeper turns into a pair of boots, they're going to be awesome no matter what I do. Previously I deliberately hadn't increased their chances of getting +speed, but the result was that people ignored them. The reason they appear with +INT or +WIS (and never with +STR, DEX or CON at high pvals) is because the spell stats are halved for the purposes of calculating the total pval power (because they're only useful to half the classes). I'll try taking out this halving - that should reduce the frequency of INT and WIS at really high pvals, without removing the all-important speed on the boots.

I don't think I've touched the dice supercharge for a long time - I'll have a look with git blame (EDIT: Feb 2009, it says). I hope this is simply a result of them being too easily found - since they're not as carefully designed as standarts they need a little more raw damage to remain competitive. Again, this is one of the reasons I'm so desperate for the monte carlo code, because I can get it to tell me really obscure but useful stuff like the average damage of the best artifact found at a given depth etc.

[Lord Fell]

I'm not sure if this is the right "place" to post this, but regarding the generation of randarts... is the "type" ever preserved? I mean, if I find the Artifact Sting, I will expect it to be a small sword, period. As for what powers Sting possesses, I'm far more comfortable with it having entirely different powers; the abilities it (or any artifact) has is largely based on interpretation.

[Magnate]

I'm not sure if this is the right "place" to post this, but regarding the generation of randarts... is the "type" ever preserved? I mean, if I find the Artifact Sting, I will expect it to be a small sword, period. As for what powers Sting possesses, I'm far more comfortable with it having entirely different powers; the abilities it (or any artifact) has is largely based on interpretation.

Only jewelry is preserved: there will always be five rings (Barahir, Tulkas and the rings of power - The One is not randomised), one Necklace, one Jewel, two Amulets etc. This is not a design choice but simply a limitation of the current code - ticket #1014 exists to remove it. All other artifacts are randomised to a different base item, within certain limits (PDSM can't turn into sandals, but Sting could end up as almost anything).

[Magnate]

I don't think I've touched the dice supercharge for a long time - I'll have a look with git blame (EDIT: Feb 2009, it says). I hope this is simply a result of them being too easily found - since they're not as carefully designed as standarts they need a little more raw damage to remain competitive. Again, this is one of the reasons I'm so desperate for the monte carlo code, because I can get it to tell me really obscure but useful stuff like the average damage of the best artifact found at a given depth etc.

Ah - one thing I did change this summer was to remove the cap of 9 dice, following a discussion about how Aule should be 18d1 now it's a Great Hammer (was a 9d3 War Hammer). That shouldn't actually have a noticeable effect on the *number* of dice supercharges, but obviously >9 dice are instantly noticeable.

[Ycombinator]

re boots: Thank you for the detailed explanation, Magnate. I think those were all sensible changes, and the current situation is better than it used to be. It probably needs only a little tweaking.
In the last game I've found +12 (speed, CHR) boots with some resists and regen. Those were the best generated boots (I've checked the spoiler) and they had generation chance 1. I think existence of such artifacts is justified, and rarity is about right. Maybe increased allocation probability granularity can help.

[PowerDiver]

people were junking artifacts in favour of BoS

That is what people do playing standarts. When you change this dynamic, like most of the changes that make junk items useful, you make the game easier. This sort of thing is why randarts are significantly more powerful than standarts even when some oblivious metric says that they are roughly equivalent.

[edit] "Oblivious" sounds a little harsh, and I don't mean it personally, just about metrics that evaluate flags without considering the slots they are in.

[Magnate]

That is what people do playing standarts. When you change this dynamic, like most of the changes that make junk items useful, you make the game easier. This sort of thing is why randarts are significantly more powerful than standarts even when some oblivious metric says that they are roughly equivalent.

[edit] "Oblivious" sounds a little harsh, and I don't mean it personally, just about metrics that evaluate flags without considering the slots they are in.

No worries - I took your per-slot thesis to heart a long time ago, and one day I will get round to the promised rewrite (ticket #1005). It might even be this xmas, if 3.2 goes out early enough.

Randarts are easier in one sense, but harder in another, because you don't know what's coming so you can't think "I'll definitely keep that because it'll go brilliantly when I find Thorin/Dor-Lomin/Fingolfin" etc. As fizzix said, you tend to need to find a larger number of randarts to get a decent endgame kit.

[ewert]

The reason they appear with +INT or +WIS (and never with +STR, DEX or CON at high pvals)

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10793

Say what? And again plunking down a major stat pit of class combo, mwahaha.

I guess that +hit+dmg/spd/wis/resists boots was just a very powerful artifact randomized as boots. If I thought about it like that, then I guess I don't reallllly mind. Just as long as they are properly "powervalued" I guess.

[Magnate]

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10793

Say what? And again plunking down a major stat pit of class combo, mwahaha.

I guess that +hit+dmg/spd/wis/resists boots was just a very powerful artifact randomized as boots. If I thought about it like that, then I guess I don't reallllly mind. Just as long as they are properly "powervalued" I guess.

Heh - remind me never to play with an infinite home!

Yes, they are properly valued - though when I get to Eddie's long-awaited rewrite to slot-dependent power, things like +hit and +dam and in fact anything except +speed and +stealth will cost more on boots ...

[Lord Fell]

I think that "the problem" (or at least part of the problem) is that Speed scales differently than other stats. What I mean is, +2 to Strength, Intelligence, etc. is a nice little stat boost, +2 Speed... well, I would take it and like it, but it's not a big boost as far as Speed is concerned.

I think the easiest fix would be to change the ratio at which Speed accumulates per (+#), much like Searching does. To that end, I propose three different item speed ratings.
Quickness would increase Speed at a 1:1 ratio, and increase the value of an item the least. Haste would increase Speed at a 2:1 ratio, so an item that is (+2) Strength & Haste would increase Strength by 2 and Speed by 4, and finally Speed would have a 3:1 ratio. I sort of think that an item that has an awesome +5 to a Stat would be "more equivalent" to a +15 Speed.

[PowerDiver]

I think that "the problem" (or at least part of the problem) is that Speed scales differently than other stats. What I mean is, +2 to Strength, Intelligence, etc. is a nice little stat boost, +2 Speed... well, I would take it and like it, but it's not a big boost as far as Speed is concerned.

That's just because you are spoiled by memories of +30 speed in earlier games. +2 to speed is quite significant.

[Lord Fell]

Firstly... no.
I played in "ancient times" when Speed wasn't fractional at all. +1 Speed was enormous, as it was the equivalent of +10 speed these days. I never played Angband during a time when +30 was a speed value players were likely to see (unless it is now, but I haven't yet had a character crack +10).

Secondly, you're pretty much reading my intent backwards. Looks to me like you pulled a knee-jerk reaction out of a handy bag that has all sorts of Internet Win Tools, and fired one at me without bothering to actual engage your brain. Maybe I need to be more explicit.

If a Rand-Art creates:
Armor of Awesomeness [18, + 12] (+12)
Let's imagine that (+12) is tied to both Speed and Constitution. Now, +12 is a really good number for Speed... but a +12 Constitution will MAX any character. It's a number that's just too high to be good for anything BUT speed.

What I am proposing, would allow for something like this:
Armor of Awesomeness [18, +12] (+4)
If that +4 were tied to both Constitution and Speed as it was in the previous example, it would be a straight up +4 Constitution. I'm proposing that it could be a "Quickness" bonus (which would be +4 Speed), a "Hasted" bonus (which would be +8 to Speed) or a "Speed" bonus (which would be +12 to Speed).

From what I've read before, random artifact creation has been having trouble creating Artifact Boots that are as good as straight up Boots of Speed, and I think my proposal would go a long way towards fixing that.