Recharging

[Adley]

Play a warrior. till you get palantir, clairvoyance is not something you're going to have. (much, anyway. Enlightment doesn't cut it.)

[Timo Pietilä]

Play a warrior. till you get palantir, clairvoyance is not something you're going to have. (much, anyway. Enlightment doesn't cut it.)

Potions of enlightement are a lot more common in current version (that is a lot newer than 3.1.2v2, which starts to be a bit old).

Anyway even warriors should not get one turn item detection for entire level at any time.

[ewert]

(regarding lighting and mapping)

I'm pretty sure it already works like that, in that it lights up but it remains different shade until you have actually seen it. Have you all the options set for different colors in that option page?

Surprise surprise, we have diverged from recharging-discussion, but that's nothing new here. Due to my own abusive detection routines and scumming, I'm definitely in agreement with Timo. I'll probably look and change clairvoyance into a pure light & map. That will: help especially against tedium for those who are careful enough to actually light up corridors all the time (I don't bother, can't remember when I have died due to not doing it), remove the detect-items-change-level temptation, and still give the most important info (pits? vaults? yey whee lets go kill some monsters! atleast for me that is the most important info ... graveyard, fleeeeee! =P)

[ewert]

Okay, done. Clairvoyance effect no longer detects items. Tested and works. And frankly, this should have been done months ago! =P

Vista 64bit, Win7 32bit, Opera, IE ... I just can't get upload to work no matter what system/browser, so can't upload a zip for testing.

[PowerDiver]

Level feelings are not accurate, Clairvoyance is. Clairvoyance as it is now takes away entire exploring the dungeon. You just cast clairvoyance and look whats there, that's it. Nothing in game is as powerful as that. This is not argue against scumming, this is argue against not needing to explore at least a little bit.

It think the difference between detecting an unknown ring across the dungeon vs the difference between a special feeling and a non-special feeling is significant, but not that huge.

The most powerful detection magic in the game should be at least 100 times as powerful as something a CL 1 char gets for free. I just can't accept your argument without coming to the conclusion that level feelings should be removed.

At an absolute minimum, level feelings should be based only upon what is in the detection area around the char when he starts a new level.

[ewert]

Special feelings happen only with preserve off though ... So kinda different situation, miss something forever or not.

Anyways, current detection mechanisms are highly discussed at the moment, nothing should be held as sacred. I'm toying with the idea of removing detTreasure from all but rogues, and detTraps totally (with the LoS ranged trap detection + trap avoidance changes of course at the same time).

[Magnate]

Level feelings are not accurate, Clairvoyance is.

It doesn't have to be. How about we make the accuracy of clairvoyance 2% * clev, with that percentage checked for each item before displaying it?

[Derakon]

It doesn't have to be. How about we make the accuracy of clairvoyance 2% * clev, with that percentage checked for each item before displaying it?

I am fundamentally opposed to spell effects intended to provide information that have a chance of lying to you. They make a mockery of tactical thinking and force you to second-guess every decision you make.

That said, we could make the radius of Clairvoyance increase with level. Heck, do that to magic mapping too.

[Magnate]

I am fundamentally opposed to spell effects intended to provide information that have a chance of lying to you. They make a mockery of tactical thinking and force you to second-guess every decision you make.

But it's only lying if you continue to claim that Clairvoyance reveals all items. My point is that it need not make that claim. It reveals SOME items - still helpful, just not overpowered. (I would not suggest that it should reveal items that don't actually exist!)

[Derakon]

I would still consider it to be lying unless there were some non-random rules behind which items it revealed. For example, I would be fine with it only revealing items that are not equipment, or only items that have a native depth above 2500', or whatever. Random is right out. Information need to have reliable effects.

I'd prefer just limiting the radius though. Say, by clvl 40 magic map maps the entire dungeon, so you can cast that to see if there's a vault or pit or whatever on the level, but not what's in it. Then you can fight your way across the dungeon and cast Clairvoyance with its much shorter range to see what's actually there. In that cast Clairvoyance simply becomes a superpowered Detection effect.

[fizzix]

But it's only lying if you continue to claim that Clairvoyance reveals all items. My point is that it need not make that claim. It reveals SOME items - still helpful, just not overpowered. (I would not suggest that it should reveal items that don't actually exist!)

I'm with Derakon on this.

I'm fine with clairvoyance only showing armor, or weapons, or potions or all items in a certain radius. As long as there's some clear delineation for what it shows and what it doesn't. I think it's the same reason I dislike the idea of weird_mind monsters. I'd rather have them all be empty mind.

[Pete Mack]

I'm messing around with these change ideas, and thinking:

If recharge in inventory is allowed, make it the old "outside of time bubble"
Change recharge for worn items to be on "x turns nevermind the speed"
Allow activation from inventory?

I am very late to this thread, but I was thinking along the same lines:
everything rechargeable in inventory recharges at "Normal" speed.
everything at home recharges at "normal" speed.
everything worn recharges at "player" speed.
wearable things don't recharge in inventory.

This makes Tulkas and Ellessar better than they are now, and much better than Rods of Speed and Rods of Healing. The right way to fix this is to make the Rods have a reasonable recharge time... Similarly, the recharge time for DSM being worn (at normal speed) should be less than the recharge time for the corresponding rod. After all, DSM doesn't stack...

[Omnipact]

Another idea for the clairvoyance/detect item code:

For clairvoyance, still detect all the objects on a level, but leave out information about the object until the player actually sees the object.

either
a) Just disclose the type of object. i.e. a 'l'ook at a detected (but not seen) potion of healing would just show "a potion". The player will then decide whether to investigate or not.

b) If you want to nerf it more, just inform the player that an object is there, perhaps using the pile symbol.

I quite like a), but there is one issue; that of squelching.
If 'detect object' follows the squelching rules then you know that that potion is going to be something you want.

Maybe clairvoyance should also detect squelchable objects, and the object isn't squelched until the player sees it.

This reduces the power of clairvoyance somewhat, making the player investigate potentially useful items, whilst keeping the spell pretty powerful.

[fizzix]

Another idea for the clairvoyance/detect item code:

...

Maybe clairvoyance should also detect squelchable objects, and the object isn't squelched until the player sees it.

IMO, this is a way to go. TMJ is an issue only in specific cases. Namely where you've killed a large amount of monsters and are sorting through the wreckage. This is where squelch is most useful.

Perhaps should apply to all object detection. -dobj doesn't tell you whether the shield is elvenkind or average. You have to go get it. It should be the same for potions, scrolls etc. Perhaps this would remove the 'emptiness' feel of some levels at the risk of increasing the 'crap, another potion of restore charisma'

[Magnate]

I am very late to this thread, but I was thinking along the same lines:
everything rechargeable in inventory recharges at "Normal" speed.
everything at home recharges at "normal" speed.
everything worn recharges at "player" speed.
wearable things don't recharge in inventory.

This makes Tulkas and Ellessar better than they are now, and much better than Rods of Speed and Rods of Healing. The right way to fix this is to make the Rods have a reasonable recharge time... Similarly, the recharge time for DSM being worn (at normal speed) should be less than the recharge time for the corresponding rod. After all, DSM doesn't stack...

Although I can completely buy the balance of this solution, I can't really get my head around ... yes, yes I can. Everything recharges at a fixed speed (of game turns), except worn items, which are "inside the time bubble" and therefore benefit from increases in player speed. So rods will get LESS useful as the player gains more speed, but wearables will remain constantly useful.

So I now have just two issues:

1. What about the old chestnut of non-magical speed penalties from encumbrance? Are we happy to allow that to slow down the recharging of wearables, or do we want special-case code to ignore it?

2. What about unworn wearables? Actually this isn't really an issue, as they will just "slow down" when not worn, and recharge more slowly relative to the player. Difficult to code but easy enough to understand, and has the nice benefit of encouraging people to keep wearing stuff (which is currently in place now).

Good one Pete.