Something between 2000' and 5000'

[AnonymousHero]

Re: Presistent levels:

Entroband and Hengband (I believe) do this in a very nice way: If you leave a level via the same set of stairs you used to enter the level, you go back to the original level with everything just as you left it (including enemies you may have left around the stairs, etc.). I you take a different set of stairs than you used to enter the level you get a freshly generated level. This rule applies to up to any number of intermediate levels -- if you descend three levels and take the exact same up stairs that you came down, you get the exact same levels all the way up.

(The exception is if you enter a new dungeon, say, the Dragon's Lair which starts at level 40, then you always get a fresh "first" level of the dungeon. Of course this is only relevant if there are multiple dungeons to start with. )

[TJS]

I can see remembering the last dungeon level you just came from. And it should be accessed only by the set of stairs you just used to arrive at your current level.

Along with the memory restrictions, the randomly generated dungeon levels also were used to keep the game more interesting. I would feel bad for a player that started a game only to have an entire persistent dungeon generated that had 100 boring levels, or 100 levels with no greater vaults, and only jelly pits and graveyards for pits/nests.

If you were generating all 100 levels at once at the start of the game though you could make sure there were plenty of interesting levels.

I imagine it would be interesting playing a game where a set number of artifacts and egos were created and spread around on the floor/in vaults/given to monsters. I suppose the problem would be that you get to the end and realise you haven't got enough end-game quality equipment so have to go back and search for it (although making the end fights easier could solve this problem).

Another thing I think is that destruction should destroy artifacts caught in the blast radius.

[Magnate]

I don't really expect it to ever change, but I really like the idea of persistent levels.

Have you played Crawl? It's possibly the best roguelike there is, if you like persistent levels.

[TJS]

Have you played Crawl? It's possibly the best roguelike there is, if you like persistent levels.

I've played it a bit, but I'm too lazy to learn all the stuff you need to know to play a roguelike properly.

[Hariolor]

thoughts:

1) what happens if you fall through a pit w/persistent levels based on stairs taken? You can never get back to previous level?

2) if stairs are realistic in terms of origin/destination - why wouldn't mosters follow you down also?

3) limiting item and/or monster creation does not have to be linked to persistent maps. It is entirely plausible to have infinite maps available via level-scumming, but keep the distribution of items statistically consistent, and the item list static.

[AnonymousHero]

thoughts:

1) what happens if you fall through a pit w/persistent levels based on stairs taken? You can never get back to previous level?

Correct.

2) if stairs are realistic in terms of origin/destination - why wouldn't mosters follow you down also?

IRL they would, of course, but I suspect they don't for the simple reason that it was easier to program that way. There's also an argument that stairs have always functioned as an escape mechanism; which they can still do -- just more limited than when you allow stairscumming.

3) limiting item and/or monster creation does not have to be linked to persistent maps. It is entirely plausible to have infinite maps available via level-scumming, but keep the distribution of items statistically consistent, and the item list static.

Indeed, but personally I would never play a game with a static item list -- just doesn't feel right for a game with randomly generated content.

[miyazaki]

Entroband and Hengband (I believe) do this in a very nice way: If you leave a level via the same set of stairs you used to enter the level, you go back to the original level with everything just as you left it (including enemies you may have left around the stairs, etc.). I you take a different set of stairs than you used to enter the level you get a freshly generated level. This rule applies to up to any number of intermediate levels -- if you descend three levels and take the exact same up stairs that you came down, you get the exact same levels all the way up.

I like this a lot. (Though it would give you a second chance in non-preserve mode! Actually, how would preserve mode work with this?)

[Matthias]

I like this a lot. (Though it would give you a second chance in non-preserve mode! Actually, how would preserve mode work with this?)

There is actually a glitch in Heng regarding this. If you leave a special level, the Artifact will be added to the lost list. Returning to the level will remove it from that list again. As a result you can abuse thise to check if you care about the artifact enough to search for it by comparing the list.


edit: Also if you fall through a trapdoor, a random stair will lead back to it. You might have to search for the correct one though.

[Timo Pietilä]

But that's already the case. People win with sub-optimal, or even bad conditions all the time.

I agree. Sauron is a joke compared to, for example, Tarrasque, against Morgoth you just need to max your damage capability, have healing (lots of CCW with lots of phase door works nicely) and a capability to deal with summons.

Hardest part of the last fight is that last one. Capability to deal with summons. That requires *destruction*, banishments, TO:s etc. which might need a bit time to collect.

[ewert]

I reckon if one were real careful and patient, you could do the last fight with rods of TeleO x 5, lots of ccw and phase door and only very minimal *destr* and banishes. Atleast 5 rods tend to feel enough for my warriors.

[Derakon]

My last warrior win used something on the order of 5 Destructs, 1 Banish, and a bunch of healing potions of various flavors. The Mass Banish went unused because the only time I would have used it, Banish worked just as well (Morgy summoned a horde of 'U's); otherwise, Destruct was the only thing that would get rid of the summoned uniques in one shot.

Phase Door + TO would probably have worked, but I had the resources to burn, so I burned them.

[ewert]

Okay I just had an idea for something to spice up the 40-74. How about if uniques give drops that bypass OoD checks better? Maybe not free reign, but how about a native dlvl+35 as "OoD level" for uniques? That would mean that any unique past 40 has a much higher chance of dropping for example speed rings than any other mob at same level. Idea would be to lure people to tackle uniques as soon as they can, so they'd fight down the levels hunting uniques due to great risk/rewards?

It would also be kinda cool that the lowbie orc uniques might drop stat potions more often. =P

[fizzix]

It would also be kinda cool that the lowbie orc uniques might drop stat potions more often. =P

They can't. Unless stat potions get added to the 'drop_good' list.

[ewert]

Ahh that's true. :P