Something between 2000' and 5000'

[miyazaki]

I do think that this is a problem of our own making. Diving is easier because of certain changes, especially in status attacks: paralyzation is no longer a concern; blindness and confusion are cured by simply obtained potions. There has also been a recent threat about nerfing nexus effects!?! Hounds? Nerfed. These things used to slow players down in the past. Now it is easy to blow right past them. The only dangers now are big breathers and they are solitary and easily avoided with detection and stealth.

Surely implementing some of the suggestions in the "Making Angband harder" thread would relieve some of the tedium that people are complaining about:

- Make detect and evade harder: nerf detection/telepathy, increase the upper end of the stealth scale.
- Nerf archery: already in progress
- Remove certain spells: create doors, create staircase, ammo branding
- Artifacts: no preserve mode, WoD destroys artifacts
- Dungeon levels: variable sized dungeons, fewer down staircases
- Monster drops: return to monster level not dlvl

Some of these are in progress, some not. This is also why I suggested some random abilities for monsters. All these make game play less formulaic: more thought has to go into exploring and fighting.

[Magnate]

In my point of view all deaths are still stupid. Dying should be a learning experience, but dying a lot just to get occasional lucky "as fast win as possible" is just stupid.

Now it is you who is failing to understand other people's playing mentality. It's not about getting lucky fast wins - I certainly had little to no luck in mine - it's about honing one's chosen style. If that involves dying a lot, that's fine if that's how you choose to play. If you choose to play more conservatively, that's fine too. Whatever you enjoy.

[Timo Pietilä]

However, I do think that some playstyles are "more optimal" than others; that is, they will beat the game faster and/or more consistently.

In that case my normal playing style is optimized to near perfect. I win nearly every single game I play. I don't dive because I find that kind of boring way to play. There is no reward in diving. And based on what Eddie said how long it takes him to win real time I might actually be faster than he is.

[Timo Pietilä]

Now it is you who is failing to understand other people's playing mentality. It's not about getting lucky fast wins - I certainly had little to no luck in mine - it's about honing one's chosen style. If that involves dying a lot, that's fine if that's how you choose to play. If you choose to play more conservatively, that's fine too. Whatever you enjoy.

Is it "fine"? Really? Then why are developers talking about ruining the game by making it shorter and more diver-friendly?

[Derakon]

In that case my normal playing style is optimized to near perfect. I win nearly every single game I play.

You're conflating playstyle and player skill. Your playstyle is optimized for you. I wouldn't be surprised if a new player would win faster (both in terms of total number of turns aggregated over all characters, and in terms of total player time, likewise aggregated) using a diving playstyle than a conservative one.

[Nightmarjoo]

Was most of what I said tl;dr? I thought I had some interesting points about what things helped create a diver's mentality, and how tweaks (not necessarily small ones, but maybe) could nullify those to some extent encouraging less deepsea diving, moving some of the fun of the lategame down to the midgame without messing up the lategame or the early game. I can try to retype some of it in fewer words if my essay there is really so cumbersome. It was on page 5 ._.

[Timo Pietilä]

You're conflating playstyle and player skill. Your playstyle is optimized for you. I wouldn't be surprised if a new player would win faster (both in terms of total number of turns aggregated over all characters, and in terms of total player time, likewise aggregated) using a diving playstyle than a conservative one.

And also die a lot more during that process. If you combine dead chars to winning chars I'm not at all sure which produces winner faster. Of course without diving you still need to keep up some pace, otherwise boredom might kill you. Especially now that there are so few drops, so few vaults and generally gear is optimized for easy playing by boosting everything.

[Magnate]

Is it "fine"? Really? Then why are developers talking about ruining the game by making it shorter and more diver-friendly?

This comes up every so often, but there is honestly no conspiracy to favour divers over anyone else - still. None of us are intending to make the game shorter, just more interesting. It so happens that the changes in the 3.1.x series - drops, randarts, quiver, etc. - have aggregated to make the game easier overall. I can promise you that that result is an accident, not the result of any intention, and it will be corrected as development continues. There are changes planned to all of spells, drops, curses, archery and detection which will push the pendulum back the other way a bit.

[nppangband]

Tbh, I really reallllly like NPP style store services for things such as enchants, restores, gains, etc. I mean REALLY like. And fireproofing! Aaaaah!

Yes, me too. I know that sounds funny coming from the maintainer, but that is just me stepping back, looking objectively, and acknowledging that some of my ideas didn't didn't really work out as I hoped they did, and some workreasonably well. But the way store services came out they became one of my favorite features in NPP. Money is always important and useful, and even the most powerful characters can find or do something useful there.

[nppangband]

This comes up every so often, but there is honestly no conspiracy to favour divers over anyone else - still. None of us are intending to make the game shorter, just more interesting. It so happens that the changes in the 3.1.x series - drops, randarts, quiver, etc. - have aggregated to make the game easier overall. I can promise you that that result is an accident, not the result of any intention, and it will be corrected as development continues. There are changes planned to all of spells, drops, curses, archery and detection which will push the pendulum back the other way a bit.

Well, sort of. Maybe not intentionally, but Angband has definitely become a diver's paradise right now. The list of things that prevents a player from waiting to dive keeps getting smaller and smaller. There just isn't that much to risk any more.

And in the old days, IIRC the biggest thing that kept a person from diving below 2000 feet was lack of poison resist, not stats, speed, or equipment. There has been an effort to smooth out the game and elimiate the "big waits" that Angband 2.8.x had. But it has just gone too far. Sometimes you just have to look at a change you have made and say "that really doesn't work", and put it back the way it was. While Angband has made some improvements, there seem to be about a half dozen things that need to be undone.

But as somebody who has been around this newsgroup for 15 years or so, I do think that nobody knows the game like Timo. He has made more good game balance suggestions over the years than anyone here. His opinion should be taken seriously.

[PowerDiver]

I don't "impose level clearing" because that is not what I do. You just don't have a clue why I play this game, your point of view is so different.

I thought this discussion is about how to make people spend more time on levels rather than dive. Is not the premise that if people influenced by me give advice to dive from 50 to 99, then it follows that something is wrong? If this thread is about something different, could you be more specific?

The game has not been changed to encourage diving. At least, not on purpose. The biggest reason for the changes has been an attempt to attack TMJ through changes to item drops, and FWIW I think I am the most vocal opponent to those changes. I think better squelching was and remains a better answer, but I do not have the influence on game design that you think I have.

As time goes by, more and more people are exposed to the advice I have been giving for years, and the influence spreads. People who could never win playing according to the old strategy guides finally won by changing perspective.
My favorite rgra post of all time was http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...9b561a9d3145db
2.5M turns is not diving by our standards, but it was by his, and that is all that counts.
The reason people say to dive is not some conspiracy to change the game. It is because it works and for most people it is more fun than stat gain ever was. I believe that it was good strategy at least as far back as 2.9, but it did not have an advocate back then.

Diving and ironman influence what I see, but whenever I suggest any change here I do it based on arguments about a non-ironman game with no reference to turncounts. I have tried never to argue for or against a change because it makes diving easier or harder.

[Derakon]

And in the old days, IIRC the biggest thing that kept a person from diving below 2000 feet was lack of poison resist, not stats, speed, or equipment. There has been an effort to smooth out the game and elimiate the "big waits" that Angband 2.8.x had. But it has just gone too far.

What new sources of poison resist have been added pre-2000'? The only thing I can think of is that Rings of Resist Poison are a bit more common. Okay, and addition of Elvenkind shields, but those are very rare and statistically unlikely to have resist poison. IMO all that has significantly changed is that people are more realistic about the risks posed from Drolems and AMHDs.

[PowerDiver]

Well, sort of. Maybe not intentionally, but Angband has definitely become a diver's paradise right now. The list of things that prevents a player from waiting to dive keeps getting smaller and smaller. There just isn't that much to risk any more.

And in the old days, IIRC the biggest thing that kept a person from diving below 2000 feet was lack of poison resist, not stats, speed, or equipment. There has been an effort to smooth out the game and elimiate the "big waits" that Angband 2.8.x had. But it has just gone too far. Sometimes you just have to look at a change you have made and say "that really doesn't work", and put it back the way it was. While Angband has made some improvements, there seem to be about a half dozen things that need to be undone

What stopped people from diving was not lack of poison resist. It was *fear* of lack of poison resist. I sometimes dive past 2000' without elec resist which I'd guess is comparably dangerous.

I agree that there are lots of things that should be undone, but I don't think that those changes will mean that diving will be less effective.

[Atarlost]

Any emergent mechanic that remained in the game for more than a maintainer generation is intentional because the new maintainer knew it was there and deliberately chose not to change it.

[Timo Pietilä]

What new sources of poison resist have been added pre-2000'? The only thing I can think of is that Rings of Resist Poison are a bit more common.

Wrong question. "What poison breathing monsters are there anymore before resist poison becomes available?" is the right one. Both Drolems and AMHD have been moved deeper (and I think made rarer).

But I agree with Eddie that that particular reason is not valid now and wasn't then for not diving past 2000'. I was a lot more afraid of nasty hound packs than individual AMHD back then.

There was general very sharp jump in monster deadliness at around 2000' in old days. For example Dracolisks and -lichs were dlvl ~2000' monsters as were something like Titans and Greater Titans.

It was just safer to slow down at the 1500-2000' before continuing deeper. Drops were decent, vaults not uncommon and you could get stat-increases so that was a "safe spot" to be a while.