Something between 2000' and 5000'

[andrewdoull]

I think we need to first understand why divers dive?

I dive to avoid Comic Sans and packs of Papyrus.

Andrew

[andrewdoull]

Calling out the intent of the original Angband developers is a dicey proposition, because we don't have any of them here to talk to

Really? I think if you look hard enough, you could...

[nppangband]

You did hit there a one major change game had very recently. Monster drop used to be average of monster level and dungeon level, making low level monsters drop much weaker things even in deep down. Now that game uses which is bigger mlvl or dlvl something like novice rangers at dlvl 98 are just as good as Ancient dragons. Big group of them are better than Ancient dragon, and way less dangerous.

That is a perfect example of a change that is upsetting game balance, & is making the game a little bland.

Another example, to me, is the change that paralysis is non-cumulative. It should be the way it was, paralysis pretty much meant instadeath, unless you got very lucky.

I don't have any problems with powerdiving. I enjoy reading the stories of fantastic luck. But I am going to try to sum up what us who don't like some of these changes are trying to say:

The problem is not powerdiving, the problem is that the game has removed every reason NOT to do it. It used to be a risk that offered a reward. But the risk of going deeper is being removed, and the rewards of going deeper are being increased. There are now so little tradeoffs to the decision of what depth the player should be at, it is making the game somewhat boring.

All IMHO, of course. And the fact that I am taking on the ~300 hour project of updating NPP from the 3.0.6 codebase to the 3.1.2v2 codebase shows how much I like many of the improvements that Angband has had in the last couple years. So no disrespect intended to the people making to these changes.

[Rizwan]

I dive to avoid Comic Sans and packs of Papyrus.

Andrew

Sorry did you mean you don't like COMIC SANS

[ewert]

Well I would not mind a reversal back to half(mlvl + dlvl)... it would change it slightly in favor of going as deep as you can handle, while still giving some bonus for taking the risk for going all the way. Still the level boringness to solve though. Autoscummer back too please.

[Derakon]

Another example, to me, is the change that paralysis is non-cumulative. It should be the way it was, paralysis pretty much meant instadeath, unless you got very lucky.

Old paralysis was an instadeath unless the paralysis came from a spell and there was only one monster in the area (or unless the monster had terrible accuracy, i.e. was a bog-standard Floating Eye). New paralysis is still an instadeath, just not quite as imminently; by the time you get to 2000' or so, getting paralyzed means giving monsters 10+ turns of unanswered melee on you, when you can typically only survive 3 or 4 (if you get surrounded).

In other words, paralysis is still really nasty, and everyone is going to want to get Free Action as soon as possible. But now, newbies have the chance to find out why they need Free Action without having to lose a character first.

[d_m]

Well I would not mind a reversal back to half(mlvl + dlvl)... it would change it slightly in favor of going as deep as you can handle, while still giving some bonus for taking the risk for going all the way. Still the level boringness to solve though. Autoscummer back too please.

I actually think something like:

max(mlvl, avg(mlvl, dlvl))

would work pretty well. The nicest thing about the current arrangement is that you don't get penalized for fighting an OOD monster. Under the old scheme you got LESS stuff for trying to take on an OOD monster than just waiting and fighting it at level.

This way, OOD monsters are worth fighting, harder monsters will always drop better stuff than easy monsters, and clearing orc pits isn't as lucrative as clearing demon pits at level 99.

[Daniel Fishman]

I like it. I'd had the same thought - that simply reverting to avg(mlvl, dlvl) 'devalued' OOD monsters - but hadn't followed that thought through far enough to get to the formula you suggest.

[nullfame]

I like the proposed change to drops. I would revert the change to paralysis but it isn't that big of a deal.

Do people think the random monster idea would make the game more fun? I have given it a lot of thought the past few days. Divers could continue to -TO them on the assumption they are dangerous, people who like fighting could engage them.

[Pete Mack]

I am not so sure about the idea of removing levels 2000'-4000'.
One of the dangers of diving is just finding the stairs and going down them. (Especially in disconnected mode.)
If you remove 40 staircases in the danger zone, you may make diving less interesting (and less dangerous.)

[fizzix]

This way, OOD monsters are worth fighting, harder monsters will always drop better stuff than easy monsters, and clearing orc pits isn't as lucrative as clearing demon pits at level 99.

Only because demon pits have more drops, and more only_item monsters. If you're going for stat gain potions, the orc pits are still good at dlevel99.

The one thing I dislike about the drop being an average is that it really puts a stronger emphasis to finding stuff on the ground. After all, this stuff you don't even need to fight a monster to get.

Nevertheless, I'll try out the new formula as it appears in HEAD and see what it's like, maybe I'm wrong with my intuition.

[Magnate]

Well, sort of. Maybe not intentionally, but Angband has definitely become a diver's paradise right now. The list of things that prevents a player from waiting to dive keeps getting smaller and smaller. There just isn't that much to risk any more.

But does that in any way reduce the enjoyment of playing in a non-diving fashion?

And in the old days, IIRC the biggest thing that kept a person from diving below 2000 feet was lack of poison resist, not stats, speed, or equipment. There has been an effort to smooth out the game and elimiate the "big waits" that Angband 2.8.x had. But it has just gone too far. Sometimes you just have to look at a change you have made and say "that really doesn't work", and put it back the way it was. While Angband has made some improvements, there seem to be about a half dozen things that need to be undone.

I hope you will list these in the thread I started for them ...

But as somebody who has been around this newsgroup for 15 years or so, I do think that nobody knows the game like Timo. He has made more good game balance suggestions over the years than anyone here. His opinion should be taken seriously.

I hope nobody thinks that Timo's opinion is not taken seriously. With the exception of the notion that there is some intentional conspiracy against non-divers, I have a great deal of respect for all Timo's opinions, and I'm sure I speak for most people here. I like the fact that he cares about the journey of the game more than about the winning - that's something that's important to me too. I think we have different ideas about how to make that better - I don't agree with his views on hounds or artifacts, for example, but I pay plenty of attention to them. Disagreement is healthy.

[nppangband]

I actually think something like:

max(mlvl, avg(mlvl, dlvl))

would work pretty well. The nicest thing about the current arrangement is that you don't get penalized for fighting an OOD monster. Under the old scheme you got LESS stuff for trying to take on an OOD monster than just waiting and fighting it at level.

This way, OOD monsters are worth fighting, harder monsters will always drop better stuff than easy monsters, and clearing orc pits isn't as lucrative as clearing demon pits at level 99.

I just moved my mouse to click the "like" button, but then I remembered this isn't facebook.

[nppangband]

But does that in any way reduce the enjoyment of playing in a non-diving fashion?

Well, yes. Because so much of the risk has been taken away, there is really nothing to do but dive. It used to be an interesting risk/reward decision, now it is all reward and no risk. I arrticulated it a little better in a post a couple pages back, but it used to be that the resist/safety mechanism that countered the threat the monsters posed could be easily found about 10-40 levels after the monsters started appearing. Poison breath was extremely dangerous after 2000, but resistance was hard to find until much deeper. Extremely fast monsters with big damage started showing up at around 2750 feet, and speed was hard to find until 3750'. The phrase "powerdiving" only came about when everything was smoothed out so the equipment that protected against the dangerous monsters became common about the same depth as the dangerous monsters appeared, or a little sooner. This eliminated the big waits, but also eliminated many of the tough decisions. But overall, it was a good thing. The "Powerdiving" rose in popularity about the same time, because the game is smooth and safe, and the only way a player who has won the game once or twice can find real challenging/strategic situation is to create it yourself by diving straight to the bottom.

I think, ideally, should be about a dozen dangers in the game where the equipment to counter it should be hard to find when the danger starts showing up, but common about 500' to 1000' later. Of course, that is a simple theory to state and a very difficult one to implement fairly, but IMHO that is the bullseye we should be aiming for.

I hope you will list these in the thread I started for them.

I will be happy to. It might be a day or two, as I won't have alot of screen time in the net 48 hours.

..I hope nobody thinks that Timo's opinion is not taken seriously. With the exception of the notion that there is some intentional conspiracy against non-divers, I have a great deal of respect for all Timo's opinions, and I'm sure I speak for most people here. I like the fact that he cares about the journey of the game more than about the winning - that's something that's important to me too. I think we have different ideas about how to make that better - I don't agree with his views on hounds or artifacts, for example, but I pay plenty of attention to them. Disagreement is healthy.

I think the trend is to try to make the game less frustrating for people to win, but the downside of that is the lack of challenge for people who have already won a couple times. But taking out frustrating deaths has the side effect of making powerdiving extremely easy and the only way to keep things interesting for the veterans. It is an extremely tough thing to balance.

I will make some suggestions in a couple days. I am always happy to help implement them, or help experiment ideas to find the right balance.

[Magnate]

Well, yes. Because so much of the risk has been taken away, there is really nothing to do but dive. It used to be an interesting risk/reward decision, now it is all reward and no risk. I arrticulated it a little better in a post a couple pages back, but it used to be that the resist/safety mechanism that countered the threat the monsters posed could be easily found about 10-40 levels after the monsters started appearing. Poison breath was extremely dangerous after 2000, but resistance was hard to find until much deeper. Extremely fast monsters with big damage started showing up at around 2750 feet, and speed was hard to find until 3750'. The phrase "powerdiving" only came about when everything was smoothed out so the equipment that protected against the dangerous monsters became common about the same depth as the dangerous monsters appeared, or a little sooner. This eliminated the big waits, but also eliminated many of the tough decisions. But overall, it was a good thing. The "Powerdiving" rose in popularity about the same time, because the game is smooth and safe, and the only way a player who has won the game once or twice can find real challenging/strategic situation is to create it yourself by diving straight to the bottom.

I think, ideally, should be about a dozen dangers in the game where the equipment to counter it should be hard to find when the danger starts showing up, but common about 500' to 1000' later. Of course, that is a simple theory to state and a very difficult one to implement fairly, but IMHO that is the bullseye we should be aiming for.



I will be happy to. It might be a day or two, as I won't have alot of screen time in the net 48 hours.



I think the trend is to try to make the game less frustrating for people to win, but the downside of that is the lack of challenge for people who have already won a couple times. But taking out frustrating deaths has the side effect of making powerdiving extremely easy and the only way to keep things interesting for the veterans. It is an extremely tough thing to balance.

I will make some suggestions in a couple days. I am always happy to help implement them, or help experiment ideas to find the right balance.

Thanks for that. From your descriptions and Timo's, it seems that the problem dates back well before 3.1.x, when the original changes were made to move the dangerous monsters deeper (which may have been JLE, or at least around the same time as his changes were incorporated).

We do at least agree that it is a tough thing to balance, and I hope Timo will accept that it is not, and never has been, a conspiracy.