Additive Multipliers

[d_m]

So r1982 implements Pete Mack's suggestion of adding (rather than multiplying) brands/slays on ranged attacks. So now your x3 longbow with acid branded arrows will get x6 to total damage, instead of the x9 it got previously.

[ekolis]

Not to nitpick or anything, and I surely should have brought this up sooner, but shouldn't that be x5? I mean, sure 3+3=6, but x3 is really +200%, so if you want to make it truly additive, you'd have +200% and another +200%, or +400%, or x5

Basically, let's be consistent in what the bonuses apply to... it doesn't make much sense to me for the first bonus to apply to the base damage, and the second bonus to apply to... well, something slightly MORE than the base damage? ... just because there are two bonuses stacking!

[d_m]

You're totally right that it seems inconsistent. I'm going to see how this plays before possibly changing it though, since this is already reducing the effective damage of branded ammo on a x3 longbow by 1/3.

To be honest, the whole combat system is so crazily inconsistent that I'm less worried about this than I should be. The fact that brands and slays don't stack but the archery multiplier does stack, the fact that non-weapon brands affect melee but not ranged, the fact that +dmg bonuses work differently in melee versus ranged, =dmg only working for melee, the way multiple blows vs. multiple shots are handled, the list goes on and on...

Anyway thanks for the heads up.

[ekolis]

Heh, yeah

Maybe though it's time to up the bonuses on bows, while reducing the damage of arrows? I mean, seriously, 1d4 damage from a THROWN arrow? How fast can you actually throw one of those things? :P Slings/rocks are OK, because you can actually throw a rock at decent velocity... but throwing an arrow or a bolt seems nonsensical...

Of course, with the way the damage system works now, there's only four possible outcomes (besides missing) when you fire an arrow... 1/4 damage, 1/2 damage, 3/4 damage, and full damage (seeing as the multiplier doesn't affect the number of dice but instead the end damage result)... reducing arrows to 1d3 or 1d2 would only make that situation worse!

[Pete Mack]

Not to nitpick or anything, and I surely should have brought this up sooner, but shouldn't that be x5? I mean, sure 3+3=6, but x3 is really +200%, so if you want to make it truly additive, you'd have +200% and another +200%, or +400%, or x5

I thought about that, too, when I proposed it, and decide that consistency was a bad idea here.

+1 x damage from slay evil means it's not worth keeping around anymore (arrows of wounding would always be better.) So I figure an extra +1 for brands and slays on ammo is fair.

[PowerDiver]

I've been playing a warrior with this additive multiplier change. Missiles are still overpowered. OTOH, I don't know how fun it would be to play a warrior without them. Post stat gain, warriors need overpowered missiles far more than any other class. For anyone else, losing a staff of speed or a wand of teleport other is a nuisance, but to a warrior even the chance of explosion on recharge is too much. Any class *other* than a warrior is better suited to melee a burner or an electrifier or a charge drainer.

So here are a bunch of radical ideas.

(0) It is too difficult to worry about making warriors balanced without making rangers into a munchkin class, so just accept that rangers are munchkin and forget about them entirely when worrying about play balance. Plus 2 shots is fine.

(1) Give warriors an extra shot with all missile weapons, or an extra half-shot if launchers of extra shots are eliminated. Or use only 2/3 energy per shot if you want it to scale linearly with extra shots. This may be too generous, but I say give warriors some love for a change. Let them be the masters of all non-magical attacks.

(2) Reduce all launcher multipliers by 1. I.e. sling = x1, longbow = x2, etc.

(3) Launcher ammo should do no damage when thrown, perhaps should not even be selectable to throw.

(4) Damage sides on ammo should be doubled.

(5) Further nerf archery as necessary, perhaps dropping all brand multipliers to +x2. That's beyond the scope of my playtesting so far, but it's a guess.

So a starting sling would be 1d8, and a +9 longbow would be 2 * (9 + 1d8) = 27 avg damage.

[nppangband]

To be honest, the whole combat system is so crazily inconsistent that I'm less worried about this than I should be. The fact that brands and slays don't stack but the archery multiplier does stack, the fact that non-weapon brands affect melee but not ranged, the fact that +dmg bonuses work differently in melee versus ranged, =dmg only working for melee, the way multiple blows vs. multiple shots are handled, the list goes on and on...

I have often thought that the biggest improveemnt to the game could be in combat. Troll warriors still go out and buy a whip to start to get those extra attacks. Hobbit warriors that have finished statgain seek out heavy weapons. I wish trolls fought like trolls (very heavy weapons, not as many attacks per round, but crushing ctirical hits that do a great amount of damage), and halflings fight like halflings (do best with light weapons, short swords and daggers, not as much damage but they are quick and get many attacks, looking kind of like Yoda when he fought Count Dooku).

[Antoine]

I have often thought that the biggest improveemnt to the game could be in combat. Troll warriors still go out and buy a whip to start to get those extra attacks. Hobbit warriors that have finished statgain seek out heavy weapons. I wish trolls fought like trolls (very heavy weapons, not as many attacks per round, but crushing ctirical hits that do a great amount of damage), and halflings fight like halflings (do best with light weapons, short swords and daggers, not as much damage but they are quick and get many attacks, looking kind of like Yoda when he fought Count Dooku).

try Ironband...

A.

[buzzkill]

(3) Launcher ammo should do no damage when thrown, perhaps should not even be selectable to throw.

This should be implemented regardless of any other changes.

[Derakon]

I can see throwing arrows and bolts not working well, but shots and stones? Seems like you ought to be able to throw those reasonably effectively.

[Timo Pietilä]

I've been playing a warrior with this additive multiplier change. Missiles are still overpowered. OTOH, I don't know how fun it would be to play a warrior without them.

Are they then overpowered? If they are fun then what way are they overpowered?

My suggestion is as it has been for a while: make ego ammunition more rare. Better yet make ammunition more rare. period.

Remove guaranteed 99 ammo from general store. Remove ammo branding. Reduce quiver to 50 arrows max.

That makes missile weapons much less powerful without taking away the fun factor.

[fizzix]

Are they then overpowered? If they are fun then what way are they overpowered?

My suggestion is as it has been for a while: make ego ammunition more rare. Better yet make ammunition more rare. period.

Remove guaranteed 99 ammo from general store. Remove ammo branding. Reduce quiver to 50 arrows max.

That makes missile weapons much less powerful without taking away the fun factor.

I disagree about the 'fun factor' being removed with your changes.

I would settle for removing the enchanting spells and enchanting scrolls from the stores. You aren't getting that much damage with regular arrows even with a very good launcher.

Putting a 50 missile max in the quiver is too low. I'll easily burn through 50 arrows on a short dungeon trip. 100 max I think is reasonable though.

I still think the greatest change needs to be extra shots. That's the unbalancing factor. Removing or reducing that is huge. Although, you are right that reducing ammo availability reduces the effectiveness of extra shots, it doesn't seem to me to be the right way to go about it.

[buzzkill]

I can see throwing arrows and bolts not working well, but shots and stones? Seems like you ought to be able to throw those reasonably effectively.

Although throwing a rock is possible, unless you're Nolan Ryan or Rogrog Clemens, it's hardly going to be effective against well, even a novice mage. Throwing an iron spike would be more effective. How many rocks would I have to hit you with (from across a room) before you died? That being said, throwing rocks that weigh several pounds could do some damage, but even then I think that you would have to get very lucky or throw a lots of them in order to kill something. It's just not practical.

Now, if pile of rubble provided a unlimited source of large rocks...

[Timo Pietilä]

I disagree about the 'fun factor' being removed with your changes.

I would settle for removing the enchanting spells and enchanting scrolls from the stores. You aren't getting that much damage with regular arrows even with a very good launcher.

Putting a 50 missile max in the quiver is too low. I'll easily burn through 50 arrows on a short dungeon trip.

That's the point. You would need to melee, because otherwise you burn through your ammunition too fast. Current vanilla encourages excessive bow usage. Bows should be powerful, because they are powerful in real world too. Their weak point is limited ammunition, not power. Giving them unlimited ammunition is what makes them so overpowered, not the damage they make.

I didn't say anything about inventory space, you can still have more ammunition, but you would need to sacrifice inventory space for them. Having 99 quiver ammo before it spans to another letter expands your inventory intolerable amount.

[fizzix]

That's the point. You would need to melee, because otherwise you burn through your ammunition too fast. Current vanilla encourages excessive bow usage. Bows should be powerful, because they are powerful in real world too. Their weak point is limited ammunition, not power. Giving them unlimited ammunition is what makes them so overpowered, not the damage they make.

I didn't say anything about inventory space, you can still have more ammunition, but you would need to sacrifice inventory space for them. Having 99 quiver ammo before it spans to another letter expands your inventory intolerable amount.

I thought you were saying 50 missiles total.

125 missiles of 10 different types taking up 3 quiver slots is reasonable to me.