Additive Multipliers

[LostTemplar]

Making usefull objects rare just means more scumming/farming. Nobody currently fights Morgoth without healing potions or with low stats, just scum more, clone death quasits, etc. Same will happen with ammo if it will be rare.

[PowerDiver]

I also suggested changes that were different to your suggestions and you defended you point of view by saying that using missiles is necessary (in a degree that shops should have infinite ammo supply and every monster that shoots arrows should drop more than you can fit in your quiver amount of missiles).

You still misunderstand me.

(1) warriors using missiles are necessary
(2) monsters that could keep shooting should always drop missiles, and shops should sell basic missiles in unlimited quantities per game

There is no correlation between (1) and (2). Argue againts either point individually if you like, but it is irrelevant to argue against them in combination.

You argued against (2) and I disagreed, not because of play balance or necessity. I find that even the current limits are so absurd that they detract from my enjoyment. I doubt that there is any argument either of us can give to change the others' mind.

Another option is to remove xtra shot launchers. There are many ways to further weaken ranged combat. It is also possible that majority opinion will be that the change to additive multipliers is enough.

[fizzix]

Another option is to remove xtra shot launchers. There are many ways to further weaken ranged combat. It is also possible that majority opinion will be that the change to additive multipliers is enough.

I'm perfectly fine with removing extra shot launchers. I played a ranger without them, and with more harsh penalties than additive multipliers and it was still fine.

Since people generally don't like removing features, another acceptable solution is to have +1 shot give the equivalent of 0.5 extra shots. As in, an extra shot every other turn. This certainly should come into play at the same time as fractional blows. (which I'm really hoping occurs before 3.1.3)

[TJS]

To make warriors better at melee against charge drainers and monsters that damage your inventory you could allow AC to have a chance to protect against these things (if it doesn't already).

Heavy armour could be given higher AC and a greater penalty for casters making them more suitable for warriors.

[Derakon]

Armor isn't worn for the AC it provides; it's worn for the abilities it grants. It's entirely possible that your late-game warrior would be wearing Hithlomir (at a mere 24 AC) because that's the only way he can cover the basic 4 while still getting to wear Thorin, for example.

Maybe you could give class-based AC multipliers, but even then, fighting charge drainers in melee is just gambling, and not very fun gambling at that.

[TJS]

Armor isn't worn for the AC it provides; it's worn for the abilities it grants. It's entirely possible that your late-game warrior would be wearing Hithlomir (at a mere 24 AC) because that's the only way he can cover the basic 4 while still getting to wear Thorin, for example.

Maybe you could give class-based AC multipliers, but even then, fighting charge drainers in melee is just gambling, and not very fun gambling at that.

That's my point really. AC is currently pretty useless, but if you give it the ability to protect your inventory (for all classes) it will be worth something. You could have a value say 150 where your inventory is completely protected (in the same way that 18/50 or whatever stops theft completely).

Warriors would be more likely to get to that value quicker because they can carry more and aren't worried about having their spelling ability reduced by heavy armour.

[Derakon]

That's fine and all, but my point was that in the fight between protecting your inventory and protecting your hitpoints (via resistances, extra stats, abilities, etc.), the inventory always loses. It's easier to just avoid the fights that put your inventory at risk.

Basically, I'm saying that people are only very rarely going to take an extra 20 AC instead of an extra resistance. The resistance would have to be nearly useless (only one that qualifies to my mind is Light -- it's rare, and its side effect is prevented by blindness resistance). Weight limitations don't enter into the equation; the warrior's extra carrying capacity is only a remotely significant factor in the early game. Unless you're comparing him against a mage or priest.

[Timo Pietilä]

You still misunderstand me.

(1) warriors using missiles are necessary
(2) monsters that could keep shooting should always drop missiles, and shops should sell basic missiles in unlimited quantities per game

There is no correlation between (1) and (2). Argue againts either point individually if you like, but it is irrelevant to argue against them in combination.

You argued against (2) and I disagreed, not because of play balance or necessity.

My main argue is against point 1. Point 2 I agree but not the amount you would want them to drop.

I still didn't get the answer to my question. Lets make it a bit more specific: why is it necessary to have unlimited supply of ammo in shops for warrior? Do you really use bow that much that you can't find the ammo you need in dungeon? In that case I just blame your playing style and say that you dive too fast.

[TJS]

That's fine and all, but my point was that in the fight between protecting your inventory and protecting your hitpoints (via resistances, extra stats, abilities, etc.), the inventory always loses. It's easier to just avoid the fights that put your inventory at risk.

Basically, I'm saying that people are only very rarely going to take an extra 20 AC instead of an extra resistance. The resistance would have to be nearly useless (only one that qualifies to my mind is Light -- it's rare, and its side effect is prevented by blindness resistance). Weight limitations don't enter into the equation; the warrior's extra carrying capacity is only a remotely significant factor in the early game. Unless you're comparing him against a mage or priest.

By the later levels I normally have >150 AC as a warrior anyway. If you increase the AC on heavier armour significantly and also make the casting penalty more punitive it could work quite well for the purpose.

But I take your point and I think AC should be more useful in others ways as well, such as reducing damage from fire and cold attacks as well. It definitely needs some boost to make swapping away AC for an ability some sort of decision.

[Timo Pietilä]

Making usefull objects rare just means more scumming/farming. Nobody currently fights Morgoth without healing potions or with low stats, just scum more, clone death quasits, etc. Same will happen with ammo if it will be rare.

There is no need to scum for ammunition in shops if they just are made more infrequent there. Ammo is plentiful enough in dungeon, weapon store and general store combined if you just make them appear there are frequently as in weapon store (or not at all, just make weapon store frequency a bit higher then).

If there are no ammo, then use melee. Rangers can fight in melee just fine. Warriors even better. Mages have spells. So do priests. Rogues and Paladins are inherently warriors with spells so that works for them too.

I bet nobody would scum for ammunition after they unlearn this "there is always 99 ammo in general store when I go back to town" paradigm. Currently there are more than enough good ammunition around. My H-Troll priest just dropped some seeker arrows of fire because those were worst ammo he had and carrying them would have spanned quiver to another letter. 99+ ego ammo better than firebranded seeker arrows. That's how bad this is now.

[TJS]

There is no need to scum for ammunition in shops if they just are made more infrequent there. Ammo is plentiful enough in dungeon, weapon store and general store combined if you just make them appear there are frequently as in weapon store (or not at all, just make weapon store frequency a bit higher then). this is now.

An idea I had for eliminating town scumming is making it so shops only get new stock when you go down to a new dungeon level you've not been to before. It could add to the old stock rather than replace it so you don't feel obliged to buy stuff when it is there and save it in the home.

[PowerDiver]

Lets make it a bit more specific: why is it necessary to have unlimited supply of ammo in shops for warrior? Do you really use bow that much that you can't find the ammo you need in dungeon?

You continue to misunderstand. Ammo in shops is not necessary.

I just find that the artificial limits on ammo take me out of the game. It would be like changing fire attacks to destroy potions and cold attacks to destroy scrolls. It would not change game balance at all, but it would be sufficiently absurd to make me enjoy the game less. I feel the same way about shooters with no ammo, or shops that can produce 20 suits of armor but cannot produce 1000 arrows. It is so absurd it detracts from my enjoyment.

[fizzix]

I feel the same way about shooters with no ammo, or shops that can produce 20 suits of armor but cannot produce 1000 arrows. It is so absurd it detracts from my enjoyment.

This isn't all that absurd. If you consider the shops as luxury merchandise trading posts as opposed to black/leathersmiths then it makes sense. If you consider shops to be supplying stations for would-be adventurers then, like you say, it makes no sense.

An idea I had for eliminating town scumming is making it so shops only get new stock when you go down to a new dungeon level you've not been to before. It could add to the old stock rather than replace it so you don't feel obliged to buy stuff when it is there and save it in the home.

This is a problem when you are bouncing around between 98 99 and 100. There are no more levels left to see, but you still need some items in town. I really would like all shops to have a set list of items that restock fully at each 10000th turn regardless of whether the player is in town or not. Some shops, like the armory, can continue to function as they currently do. Buying out the store does nothing.

[TJS]

This is a problem when you are bouncing around between 98 99 and 100. There are no more levels left to see, but you still need some items in town. I really would like all shops to have a set list of items that restock fully at each 10000th turn regardless of whether the player is in town or not. Some shops, like the armory, can continue to function as they currently do. Buying out the store does nothing.

If the lack of consumable drops was addressed then perhaps this wouldn't be as much of a problem. Constantly going back to town to pick standard stuff up is pretty boring really.

You could make it so better equipment appears in the shops as the game goes on. After a while there is almost never anything worthwhile in the armoury or weapon shops.

[Timo Pietilä]

You continue to misunderstand. Ammo in shops is not necessary.

So what was your problem again? Shooting is necessary and reduced ammo is a problem, but shooting is not necessary and reduced ammo is not a problem? I don't get it.

I just find that the artificial limits on ammo take me out of the game.

No artificial, just not guaranteed. Like everything else in angband that should be subject of RNG. Game is full of these kind of restrictions. You don't for example have infinite inventory slots for different things. That's there for a purpose. Game balance purpose. You didn't use to have practically unlimited ammo either because of that, but now quiver is reducing that to moot point.

It would be like changing fire attacks to destroy potions and cold attacks to destroy scrolls. It would not change game balance at all, but it would be sufficiently absurd to make me enjoy the game less.

That's just absurd. Infinite ammo does affect game balance. That's the whole point of removing that. You complained that shooters are overpowered. Well, they are not overpowered if you can't shoot everything always everywhere whenever you feel like it.

I feel the same way about shooters with no ammo, or shops that can produce 20 suits of armor but cannot produce 1000 arrows. It is so absurd it detracts from my enjoyment.

Maybe their supplier just didn't bring them any ammo this week. Or someone before you have bought them out already. Ammo is consumable. Armor is not (or shooter or melee weapons). Ever visited grocery shop and find out that your favorite brand of bread is not there? Same thing. That general store with always infinite ammo is unrealistic way more than general store with sometimes empty ammo supply.