Additive Multipliers

[nullfame]

I've only won three times, including just a few minutes ago, and in those I hit dl98 in 850K, 560K, and 760K turns respectively. I don't optimize for turn count but I don't stop for resists and stats either. I also die a lot

In the game I just finished I had 5 stacks of slay evil ammo, which is admittedly unusual, plus some acid for Sauron and I think every slay and branding flavor but lightning. My 600K warrior winner meleed Morgoth with 6 big healing potions, not much else, and only DEX maxed out. That was scary but feasible with a stack of ?phase and !CCW.

[Timo Pietilä]

How many turns do you take to get to dl98?

Who cares? This is not game of diving even if comp emphasizes that and few players tend to think so.

I also find plenty of ammo. Too much actually. At least deeper down when I'm not playing ranger which burns those ammunition at least three times as fast as other classes.

[Magnate]

Removing the branding/enchanting spells is probably a good idea. I think I am a minority of 1 that doesn't think drops are currently broken. I am able to find plenty of ammo, max my CON and important stats, save enough potions, etc.

How many turns do you take to get to dl98?

To the others: yes, I'm a big fan of demand-based pricing. Every time you buy something, its price should go up. I'm very much hoping that Takk decides to go somewhere in this direction when he grapples with the buyout problem.

[nullfame]

Btw, the spell is broken since you can sell the branded ammo at a huge profit.

Really? This is what you do? Brand ammo and sell it back to the stores? You still need money on dl70?

I think the general consensus was just to remove the spell altogether and try to fix the enchanted arrow/bolt drop/quantity frequency to make the game more balanced for everybody.

Removing the branding/enchanting spells is probably a good idea. I think I am a minority of 1 that doesn't think drops are currently broken. I am able to find plenty of ammo, max my CON and important stats, save enough potions, etc.

[ekolis]

5. Demand-based pricing, which was proposed years ago, actually implemented in one ancient variant or other (forget which one), and works quite well in Scorched3D (ok, not a roguelike)

*ducks and runs* :P

[buzzkill]

1. Provide more ammo drops in dungeon.

2. Limit ammo sold in shops (randomize it).

3. Institute a progressive tax on ammo. The price increases (dramatically, 100% ???) each time you buy it.

3a. This could also help to address the excessive GP/selling problem.

4. If you feel that this would lead to (arrow) scumming, then don't increase drops.

[bebo]

Half the classes in the game have access to Tenser's Transformations, which enables them to turn (+0,+0) ammo into (+9,+9) branded ammo using nothing but patience. Since undead don't resist fire and demons don't resist cold, it's pretty useful.

If I remember correctly this was discussed quite a bit a while ago - I think the general consensus was just to remove the spell altogether and try to fix the enchanted arrow/bolt drop/quantity frequency to make the game more balanced for everybody. But this ties with the problematic discussion of spell rebalancing,changes etc which is quite a bit off topic ...

[AnonymousHero]

Half the classes in the game have access to Tenser's Transformations, which enables them to turn (+0,+0) ammo into (+9,+9) branded ammo using nothing but patience.

Btw, the spell is broken since you can sell the branded ammo at a huge profit. I'd suggest adding a 100% discount "inscription", but I believe there is a ticket on trac to get rid of the spell altogether (which I'd definitely agree with).

[Magnate]

What difference does unlimited (+0,+0) ammo make? I'm not shooting it at greater undead or demons. Even with Umbar what are you doing? 60? By dl50-60 I am not even carrying unenchanted ammo.

Half the classes in the game have access to Tenser's Transformations, which enables them to turn (+0,+0) ammo into (+9,+9) branded ammo using nothing but patience. Since undead don't resist fire and demons don't resist cold, it's pretty useful.

I don't find going back to town to buy consumables to be a problem. After the early game where my money is limited I am almost never recalling for this purpose and almost always recalling to stow something in the home. Maybe I buy something while I'm there. YMMV.

I don't dislike the town per se, but I think it should be completely re-imagined from first principles. It shouldn't be a source of consumables, but a source of occasional useful stuff (ego items, devices etc.) and services like stat restoration (see NPP). Then the whole buyout issue would go away.

I thought the whole point was that by nerfing archery you are hurting the warrior more than anybody else. The warrior cannot melee an electrifier because he cannot lose wand of teleport other. Everyone else has TO in spell form. Etc.

Yes, this is the real problem. But IMO people are looking at it the wrong way round. The warrior's difficulties with melee is no reason not to nerf archery - we just need a way of protecting warriors from the worse side effects of melee (item destruction, charge draining etc.).

[nullfame]

I am likewise confused trying to follow this thread. My thoughts:

What difference does unlimited (+0,+0) ammo make? I'm not shooting it at greater undead or demons. Even with Umbar what are you doing? 60? By dl50-60 I am not even carrying unenchanted ammo.

I don't find going back to town to buy consumables to be a problem. After the early game where my money is limited I am almost never recalling for this purpose and almost always recalling to stow something in the home. Maybe I buy something while I'm there. YMMV.

I thought the whole point was that by nerfing archery you are hurting the warrior more than anybody else. The warrior cannot melee an electrifier because he cannot lose wand of teleport other. Everyone else has TO in spell form. Etc.

[PowerDiver]

That's just absurd. Infinite ammo does affect game balance. That's the whole point of removing that. You complained that shooters are overpowered. Well, they are not overpowered if you can't shoot everything always everywhere whenever you feel like it.

I have been trying to make this clear. The particular fix is no good for me for reasons other than game balance. I make no claims about whether it would work. I reject it for other reasons related to how I enjoy the game.

As to people talking against ammo in shops but accepting monsters that shoot should drop ammo, they are missing the point. That is another source of infinite ammo and would break the idea behind your fix, which is to limit ammo.

If any monsters in the early dungeon levels drop ammo, limiting ammo in shops just amounts to a change that people who want ammo just have to scum to get it. That is the sort of tedium instead of difficulty concept I have been railing against for years. After every 3 real trips, descend to DL 4 and kill a bunch of novice rangers to replenish your quiver. Ugh.

[Magnate]

Not only that but mages should drop mage books, rangers arrows and bows, priests priest books and so on. Not with any guarantee, but with higher probability (so that you don't get swamped by items you don't need anymore, but can't squelch either).

IIRC Un has this quite well done, so we could take a look and backport from there.

[Timo Pietilä]

Entirely separately to the issue of balancing archery, I'm against shopping. I'd much rather fix drops than debate what should and shouldn't be for sale in town. I'd like to implement Eddie's suggestion that anything which shoots arrows drops them - then if you run out of arrows in the dungeon, go find an orc pit.

Not only that but mages should drop mage books, rangers arrows and bows, priests priest books and so on. Not with any guarantee, but with higher probability (so that you don't get swamped by items you don't need anymore, but can't squelch either).

[Magnate]

I can't work out whether Eddie's problem is with supply per se, or just with shopping. Ammo is consumable, just like potions and scrolls. I'm with Timo that making ammo rarer would help offset the power of archery - in fact I'd rather see that happen than some of the other proposed nerfs.

Entirely separately to the issue of balancing archery, I'm against shopping. I'd much rather fix drops than debate what should and shouldn't be for sale in town. I'd like to implement Eddie's suggestion that anything which shoots arrows drops them - then if you run out of arrows in the dungeon, go find an orc pit.

[Timo Pietilä]

You continue to misunderstand. Ammo in shops is not necessary.

So what was your problem again? Shooting is necessary and reduced ammo is a problem, but shooting is not necessary and reduced ammo is not a problem? I don't get it.

I just find that the artificial limits on ammo take me out of the game.

No artificial, just not guaranteed. Like everything else in angband that should be subject of RNG. Game is full of these kind of restrictions. You don't for example have infinite inventory slots for different things. That's there for a purpose. Game balance purpose. You didn't use to have practically unlimited ammo either because of that, but now quiver is reducing that to moot point.

It would be like changing fire attacks to destroy potions and cold attacks to destroy scrolls. It would not change game balance at all, but it would be sufficiently absurd to make me enjoy the game less.

That's just absurd. Infinite ammo does affect game balance. That's the whole point of removing that. You complained that shooters are overpowered. Well, they are not overpowered if you can't shoot everything always everywhere whenever you feel like it.

I feel the same way about shooters with no ammo, or shops that can produce 20 suits of armor but cannot produce 1000 arrows. It is so absurd it detracts from my enjoyment.

Maybe their supplier just didn't bring them any ammo this week. Or someone before you have bought them out already. Ammo is consumable. Armor is not (or shooter or melee weapons). Ever visited grocery shop and find out that your favorite brand of bread is not there? Same thing. That general store with always infinite ammo is unrealistic way more than general store with sometimes empty ammo supply.