Identification Reform

[dhegler]

If ID gets any easier, I may stop playing V.

Artifacts are already instantly revealed on pick-up, pseudo-ID is faster than ever before, *identify* has been removed, _identify has been added, indestructable -IDs have been added, ID-by-use is in full force, some races have been given insta-ID for some items, and squelch settings are being improved.

I like that there is a cost to identifying items, especially early game; I like that it makes inventory management more difficult; I like that it drives up turncount to sift through the detritus of an orc pit.

The current ID system makes classes different (warriors). It makes you think about using your mana to ID things and possibly be caught with your pants down. It makes you think about trying to sneak into a vault and grab an un-IDed amulet and out again. It definitely causes ironman player to make difficult decisions. Once the curses are re-done, it will improve the risk/reward structure of ID-by-use resulting in more tactical choices (hopefully).

Instead of making ID easier, I think it should be made harder: remove the spell from rangers and paladins, increase the cost of scrolls and staves and force players to use ID-by-use. This will make ID less tedious (because it become impractical to ID every last item) and more tactical.

I would disagree with most of that, but I was kind of disappointed when artifacts were auto-ID'ed the first time I picked one up in 3.1.2. If you can't tell that a lance (7d8), gauntlets (3,?), are special after picking up all the normal items, I don't feel too bad if you miss an artifact.

I think a lot if not most people who play this game are a bit OCD, like me, and cannot resist the temptation to ID everything, which is probably why a lot of people want to make it a bit easier.

[d_m]

I would disagree with most of that, but I was kind of disappointed when artifacts were auto-ID'ed the first time I picked one up in 3.1.2. If you can't tell that a lance (7d8), gauntlets (3,?), are special after picking up all the normal items, I don't feel too bad if you miss an artifact.

I think a lot if not most people who play this game are a bit OCD, like me, and cannot resist the temptation to ID everything, which is probably why a lot of people want to make it a bit easier.

FWIW, you no longer see "special dice" on weapons that are not identified. So, if you see a Long Sword (2d5) lying around it could be Ringil.

[PowerDiver]

It's been a long time since I found it entertaining to sort through un-identified equipment items. The early game inventory crush is vastly outweighed by the mid- and late-game tedium. Leave ID in for figuring out what flavored items are, but beyond that I support any changes that mean that I don't have to poke at a piece of gear for several turns before deciding what to do with it.

I am in complete agreement. The people opposed to easy id must not spend a high proportion of their time in the depths. Things are still bad. Really bad.

One problem I have not seen mentioned is the requirement to get a hit to see attack plusses and damage dice. When going through clutter, you need to decide what to examine further without the ability to hit something. That means a zweihander of slay evil (5d6) (+40,+40) is junk to me, because I am going to toss it without ever seeing the 5d6 or the plusses. It's just not feasible to check.

IMO it is vital that attack plusses should be visible on wield, and I would prefer on walkover. If we move to a rune approach it will be vital that they be visible when the runes are visible.

[ewert]

PD I think you are right, the depth variable probably plays a big role in how people feel about ID.

In view of that, I'd go with the auto-ID with a level check on walkover as suggested by erm, someone, earlier. That way the early levels don't get changed (they work pretty okay tbh), but the end game level tedium gets fixed.

Maybe something like as is up to char level 15, from 15 auto-pseudo on walkover, from 25 auto-id everything but splendid+, and from 35 id all but artifacts on walkover? This is just for weapons, ammo and armor though of course. Or something in that line of thought ... Something that sort of tries to keep the excitement of finding out what that possibly useful item is while at the same time making it very fast to recognize what items ARE those items that might be useful.

[dhegler]

FWIW, you no longer see "special dice" on weapons that are not identified. So, if you see a Long Sword (2d5) lying around it could be Ringil.

Hmmm... Well that changes a lot. 3.1.1 had the "Special dice" I believe... But still, pseudo-ID should easily identify any artifact.

[miyazaki]

I am in complete agreement. The people opposed to easy id must not spend a high proportion of their time in the depths. Things are still bad. Really bad.

One problem I have not seen mentioned is the requirement to get a hit to see attack plusses and damage dice. When going through clutter, you need to decide what to examine further without the ability to hit something. That means a zweihander of slay evil (5d6) (+40,+40) is junk to me, because I am going to toss it without ever seeing the 5d6 or the plusses. It's just not feasible to check.

IMO it is vital that attack plusses should be visible on wield, and I would prefer on walkover. If we move to a rune approach it will be vital that they be visible when the runes are visible.

Wouldn't that sword be squelched in your world? I think that missing that sword is an occupational hazard of your style of play.

I don't think that this problem lies in the ID system--there are too many weapons and armour being generated at depth (especially poor quality ones). I think that this discussion is centred on how to solve the TMJ problem using ID. I don't think that is the right approach. I have spent enough time putzing around dlvl97 trying to find consumables and upgrade my kit. It can get tedious but this is not fundamentally an ID problem.

[Magnate]

I don't think that this problem lies in the ID system--there are too many weapons and armour being generated at depth (especially poor quality ones). I think that this discussion is centred on how to solve the TMJ problem using ID. I don't think that is the right approach. I have spent enough time putzing around dlvl97 trying to find consumables and upgrade my kit. It can get tedious but this is not fundamentally an ID problem.

Well said. So well, in fact, that I have to add filler.

[PowerDiver]

Wouldn't that sword be squelched in your world? I think that missing that sword is an occupational hazard of your style of play.

Squelched or tossed, same thing. The only alternative is to use identify scrolls on everything. Testing simply is not feasible. It's not a question of style as such. Even just wielding every object is already into tedium territory. The advantage of rune-based with notice on walkover is that you aren't forced to wield over and over and over.

It's a ridiculously low probability event, so I'm not at all worried about it. My point is that the use-by-id mechanic currently in use turns what would have been a useful item into junk. Those who are religiously anti-junk should at least consider this. My personal view is that one man's junk is another man's treasure, and that junk was never the problem. The problem is the need for id requiring multiple keystrokes on every item.

If you don't ?id everything, that sword is turned into junk if not revealed on wield. If you expect everyone to ?id everything, the whole id mechanic is pointless, which I believe was the point of the OP.

[d_m]

I think at some point Takkaria was talking about adding clevel-based identification, so that by a high-level things auto-identify on pick up (or something like that). I think this approach is a good compromise (for now) between those who want to remove the ID mechanic entirely and those who want to keep it around.

Takkaria, my apologies if this wasn't something you had said... I don't have time to check IRC logs but I seem to remember you mentioning it.

[miyazaki]

Squelched or tossed, same thing. The only alternative is to use identify scrolls on everything. Testing simply is not feasible. It's not a question of style as such. Even just wielding every object is already into tedium territory. The advantage of rune-based with notice on walkover is that you aren't forced to wield over and over and over.

It's a ridiculously low probability event, so I'm not at all worried about it. My point is that the use-by-id mechanic currently in use turns what would have been a useful item into junk. Those who are religiously anti-junk should at least consider this. My personal view is that one man's junk is another man's treasure, and that junk was never the problem. The problem is the need for id requiring multiple keystrokes on every item.

If you don't ?id everything, that sword is turned into junk if not revealed on wield. If you expect everyone to ?id everything, the whole id mechanic is pointless, which I believe was the point of the OP.

I don't like ID on walk-over because it makes some tactically tricky situations really easy. I appreciate that dragon pits cleared of enemies and full of loot is a headache, but I am thinking about a vault or room with a few (potentially) good items and dangerous monsters bearing down on you. I like that to get info on a sword, I have to remove my current weapon, lose the resistances and bonuses, even just for a turn.

I hear that you are concerned with the keystrokes and mechanics of actually getting the ID. Perhaps the two views could be reconsiled with a new command that with a single keystroke (and using a game turn), a piece of armour or weapon could be picked up, tested and put down again by the character. Use "i" for identify.

[Pete Mack]

You have no business wandering around examining things prior to teleporting dangerous monsters away. You will die.

I understand your point about picking stuff up in a vault, but I just don't think it's a big deal. NPP bulk ID doesn't help in vaults much; it's a real help after clearing a 'd' pit.

ID in late in the game is sufficiently boring that I'm only looking at a few things anyway:

• Artifacts
• Ammo
• Boots (if I don't have BoSpeed already.)
• Rings of Speed and possibly CON or Damage(if I don't have a good one yet.)
• High-level amulets
• Top 3 big-dice {superb} (HA/+2 attacks) weapons. (MoD, SoS, BoC)
• {superb} (of Might and Magi {ESP}) and {excellent} (Serenity) crowns. Fortunately, these are all obvious.

That still makes for a lot of junk.

[Rizwan]

What I find most frustrating is finding junky ego items with like (+2,+3) attributes. If somehow such useless egos were not to be generated at lower depths it might help in the TMJ department. Suppose an ego item is to be generated on dl 50 then it must be at least a (+10,+10) or higher, or something like that. If it is not then it does not get generated. So this way as you proceed down you find better and better stuff and not something that would have been useful 30 levels ago.

[Pete Mack]

What I find most frustrating is finding junky ego items with like (+2,+3) attributes. If somehow such useless egos were not to be generated at lower depths it might help in the TMJ department. Suppose an ego item is to be generated on dl 50 then it must be at least a (+10,+10) or higher, or something like that. If it is not then it does not get generated. So this way as you proceed down you find better and better stuff and not something that would have been useful 30 levels ago.

Do recall that, in the long term, (+2,+3) is just as good as (+9,+9) for weapons and bows. For armor and rings, it's a nice lagniappe.

The big issue for weapons and bows is max damage when fully enchanted. A BoC (9d5) (+2,+3)(+2 attacks) is very, very nice. Especially if you also have a Ring of Acid.

[Rizwan]

Do recall that, in the long term, (+2,+3) is just as good as (+9,+9) for weapons and bows. For armor and rings, it's a nice lagniappe.

The big issue for weapons and bows is max damage when fully enchanted. A BoC (9d5) (+2,+3)(+2 attacks) is very, very nice. Especially if you also have a Ring of Acid.

Ok you are right. So instead what if only 1 ego item of a kind were generated kind of like artifacts. Suppose a rapier of frost has been generated then no more rapiers of frost will ever be generated for that game? But rapier of flame, acid etc could still be generated. Same for other equipment.

[Marble Dice]

Ok you are right. So instead what if only 1 ego item of a kind were generated kind of like artifacts. Suppose a rapier of frost has been generated then no more rapiers of frost will ever be generated for that game? But rapier of flame, acid etc could still be generated. Same for other equipment.

This is an interesting thought, but I think adequate squelch control would more than emulate this behavior.

</PowerDiver>