Randart vs. standard

[dhegler]

Has there been any talk about allowing randart AND standarts in the same game? I'm not a programmer, so I do not know how the code works, but what is keeping an option like "Allow both standard and randart" off the table? I assume it is a coding issue?

Perhaps this has been discussed, but I haven't seen anything posted in the last 6 months or so...

Also, why does randart have to be a birth option? I forgot it again in my latest character. It seemed like it creates a master artifact list when you start a game, but why not code it so you have a set of standard artifacts and then have the choice to allow for other randarts as well. Allow for an option to allow for either, or both. What keeps you from giving an x% chance of an artifact on a level, then a 50/50% chance it is a randart, and compile a randart upon creation of the level?

While I was playing ToME, I thought this really added to gameplay, at least for me.

[SilverD]

There are a very few artifacts that don't get randomized, but I do kind of like the idea.. The only thing that's stopping me from playing a randart game is the uneasiness that I can't plan ahead on what I'm going to look for in terms of ultimate equipment, resists, etc...

As for the birth option, that's a coding issue. Artifacts get initialized at the character creation process, and that's when the loop for artifact generation takes place, replacing almost all of the standard artifacts.
When you succeed a roll for an artifact drop, the game picks the artifact index,
and then it creates that artifact. The game does not look for standard/randart options at that point, but just creates whatever matches the picked ID.

I do like the idea of a standard artifact having a chance to become a randart at drop time. Or at least, at randart generation.

[PowerDiver]

I do like the idea of a standard artifact having a chance to become a randart at drop time. Or at least, at randart generation.

That cannot be managed with the current implementation. First, a base item is produced. Then if it passes enough tests, it has a chance to convert into a matching artifact. The "but" is that you have to have the artifact template complete with rarity first before you apply the test, and that means that you have to generate the artifact list at birth.

This is a result of basing randarts off of some measure of power of standarts. If everything was distributional [by which I mean each flag is added to a particular randart independently of other randarts] then you could have the kind of behavior that you want.

[Remuz]

One side-effect is that the total number of artifacts is fixed. Once you have found them all, there is not really any way to increase your power (granted, you should have killed M way before that point).

As far as I know, Tome at least does not proceed this way. It seems to me that artifacts get generated all the time, which means that you can always hope to find a better one.

[konijn_]

Has there been any talk about allowing randart AND standarts in the same game? I'm not a programmer, so I do not know how the code works, but what is keeping an option like "Allow both standard and randart" off the table? I assume it is a coding issue?

Perhaps this has been discussed, but I haven't seen anything posted in the last 6 months or so...

Also, why does randart have to be a birth option? I forgot it again in my latest character. It seemed like it creates a master artifact list when you start a game, but why not code it so you have a set of standard artifacts and then have the choice to allow for other randarts as well. Allow for an option to allow for either, or both. What keeps you from giving an x% chance of an artifact on a level, then a 50/50% chance it is a randart, and compile a randart upon creation of the level?

While I was playing ToME, I thought this really added to gameplay, at least for me.

Greetings,
I concur, randarts + regular arts is really nice. You'd have to choose whether you want the randarts to be based on existing artefacts or really be random.

T.

[Derakon]

As far as I know, Tome at least does not proceed this way. It seems to me that artifacts get generated all the time, which means that you can always hope to find a better one.

Correct. In ToME, when an artifact is generated, it can be a standart, or it can be a randart generated on-the-fly. ToME randarts have nothing to do with the standart set, as far as I know; they just get a name and a selection of randomly-chosen powers based on their equipment slot. Because of the large number of available powers and the small number of "considered useful" powers in ToME, most randarts are basically junk (e.g. a longsword with three slays and nothing else); however, ToME generates so many items, and at such a higher general quality, that you'll still find a few useful ones, in addition to the standarts you'll see.

Seriously, if you ever think that Vanilla has a Too Much Junk problem, go play ToME and dive through the Orc Caves.

[fizzix]

once multiple pvals on egos get implemented this will be a moot point. They will essentially be a source of randarts.

[shawnosullivan]

are new ego types planned when multiple pvals are implemented?

[Nick]

O/FA have randart and standart as standard (read that fast ). The standard artifacts are always there, and there are also always some randarts. Unlike ToME, though, they are all generated at character birth.

[dhegler]

OK, what is a "pval"? Is that the "power" value placed on a certain characteristic of an artifact? When this gets implemented, how does that fix having both randart and standart?

I just don't understand, forgive my ignorance.

[Derakon]

pval is the "plus" of the item. For example, Holy Avengers get a 1d4 pval that increases Wisdom. Cubragol gets a pval of 10 that increases speed. Currently each item can only have one pval, so you can't have an item that increases speed by 10 and strength by 1. Once items can have multiple pvals, we'll have a lot more leeway to mix and match abilities without items becoming overpowered.

[dhegler]

Gotcha. So, you can't have something with +10 to speed and 1d4 to strength? That's why you sometimes find missile weapons with +1 to about 5 different things... Now that makes sense. Now to implement mid-game randart options!

[fizzix]

Gotcha. So, you can't have something with +10 to speed and 1d4 to strength? That's why you sometimes find missile weapons with +1 to about 5 different things... Now that makes sense. Now to implement mid-game randart options!

Similarly, to making multiple pvals, we also need to add the option for multiple random powers/resists/sustains on an item.

Then you can have completely random ego items that will serve as a weak set of randarts.

[dhegler]

That would be nice, current egos are kind of boring except for a few, and once you find a good artifact, you rarely use another ego, unless you have westernesse, HA, haradrim, etc...

[Magnate]

Greetings,
I concur, randarts + regular arts is really nice. You'd have to choose whether you want the randarts to be based on existing artefacts or really be random.

T.

The whole point of randarts is that they replace the standard artifact set. They're designed for people who don't want to wait around for the old Cubragol-Thorin-DorLomin-Fingolfin megayawn. You're not supposed to be able to plan ahead and know what you'll get. That's the point.

Everything said about multiple pvals and abilities on egos is true: with enough variation they will become randart-like, albeit not unique because you could always get two identical, however unlikely. (Note that randarts themselves are not guaranteed unique, though I have never seen two identical.)

Once that happens, there is really no need to change the current artifact generation setup, because you can either play with standarts + mega-egos (which is like what the OP wanted), or you can play with randarts + mega-egos, for a game of total randomness.

I would not be averse to changing randart generation so that you could have some randarts and some standarts, but I suspect that my implementation would annoy most people: I would keep only a very small proportion of the standarts, including none of the endgame no-brainers. I would keep interesting ones like Turmil and Avavir and Colluin. Like I say, you're not supposed to be able to plan ahead. That's the point.