Increasing number of Randarts

[Magnate]

Can't the elven rings be scripted to not aggravate as exceptions? That would be nice. Would help people not be afraid of using randarts.

Yeah they could. So could all other randarts. I could also script them to have all six sustains and all four immunities.

We went round this circle several months ago, about how awful aggravate was and how nobody wanted anything to aggravate until curses were overhauled and aggravate became less awful. At that point I cut the number of aggravating randarts down by about 60%, making them way more attractive than the standard artifact set (from the non-aggravate POV).

I promise you all that if aggravate still hasn't been revised by the time 3.1.3 is released, I'll remove it from randarts altogether.

I also have an open ticket to look at batching sustains. They are no less common on randarts than on standard artifacts, but they do tend to show up fewer at a time.

[PowerDiver]

I also have an open ticket to look at batching sustains. They are no less common on randarts than on standard artifacts, but they do tend to show up fewer at a time.

It's not so much about batching them as in putting them on artifacts that are used. The overall frequency in the entire set of randarts is irrelevant. If they are on a reincarnated weak item, they won't be useful vs M. If someone complained about lack of sustains vs M in the standard set, replying that you would add two sustains to each of the *thancs simply wouldn't help.

When I look at my standart chars facing M, other than fire and cold and acid, most things are barely covered. It seems like things are designed to fit together. To get the same covering from an equivalent amount of random stuff, it might be necessary to increase the powers by 10% or possibly even 20% to make up for the expected overlapping flags.

[Pete Mack]

@Powerdiver--
this sounds right, except I don't think improving the power overall is the right way to go.
I suspect that simply making +stat and res_stat have a strong affinity (50%? 30%?) is enough, here.

[Nick]

@Powerdiver--
this sounds right, except I don't think improving the power overall is the right way to go.
I suspect that simply making +stat and res_stat have a strong affinity (50%? 30%?) is enough, here.

I would suggest another look at the O/FA randart code, which seems to me lead to more coherent randarts (at the cost of less purity of the randomness).

[Magnate]

I would suggest another look at the O/FA randart code, which seems to me lead to more coherent randarts (at the cost of less purity of the randomness).

It has long been my ambition to make more coherent randarts, and Pete's suggestion of an association between +stat and sus_stat is exactly the kind of thing I have in mind.

That said, randarts will never be an identical experience to playing with the standard set, and I don't aspire to that. The, er, nature of randomness means that your endgame kit is likely to be less perfectly complementary than the carefully designed standard artifacts. I am fine with this: people say that randarts make the game too easy because there are sick launchers or easier coverage of immunities or whatever - this is the other side of the coin.

[fizzix]

It has long been my ambition to make more coherent randarts, and Pete's suggestion of an association between +stat and sus_stat is exactly the kind of thing I have in mind.

That said, randarts will never be an identical experience to playing with the standard set, and I don't aspire to that. The, er, nature of randomness means that your endgame kit is likely to be less perfectly complementary than the carefully designed standard artifacts. I am fine with this: people say that randarts make the game too easy because there are sick launchers or easier coverage of immunities or whatever - this is the other side of the coin.

It's a crapshoot. I've had randart games that felt a lot easier than a standart game. I've also had some that were very hard because there was no perfectly adequate kit and I had to live without certain resists/immunities. Some games harder, some games easier, sounds perfect to me.

[PowerDiver]

I am a big fan of randomness, but the problem I have with the changes is that they are biased towards missiles. Even a single extra shot on a non-bowslot item is unbalancing, and things which make sustains harder to cover just make you plan on shooting instead of bashing.

[Magnate]

I am a big fan of randomness, but the problem I have with the changes is that they are biased towards missiles. Even a single extra shot on a non-bowslot item is unbalancing, and things which make sustains harder to cover just make you plan on shooting instead of bashing.

This is an interesting and probably valid point, but it's one of those things I'm reluctant to invest time in until missile damage has been properly nerfed. I mean rebalanced.

[PowerDiver]

This is an interesting and probably valid point, but it's one of those things I'm reluctant to invest time in until missile damage has been properly nerfed. I mean rebalanced.

Well, for now, could you count +1 blow as about +15 melee damage and +1 shot as about +75 melee damage [as in the to_dam value on any wielded item] in your power calculations? The +1 shot should probably be closer to +100, but I bet you were already shocked by +75.

You can reduce the power ratings later when missiles are nerfed.

[Derakon]

It's pretty easy to think of shots in terms of melee. Extra Might becomes Extra Blows, and Extra Shots becomes +(current blows) Extra Blows. If you assume that the average character has an x3 launcher multiplier, then each extra shot is equivalent to 3 extra blows. Of course, it's slightly less in practice due to Extra Shots requiring you to expend more ammo compared to Extra Might, but I don't think that's particularly significant.

[PowerDiver]

Power calcs should be about endgame chars, so the value of +1 shots should be the value of a char with Bard or Umbar and acid ammo getting another shot.

If I was playing with standard artifacts and found Ringil at DL 50, and was given the option to trade it for a cloak with +1 shots and nothing else, I would make the trade in a heartbeat unless I was playing a ranger.

[fizzix]

Well, for now, could you count +1 blow as about +15 melee damage and +1 shot as about +75 melee damage [as in the to_dam value on any wielded item] in your power calculations? The +1 shot should probably be closer to +100, but I bet you were already shocked by +75.

You can reduce the power ratings later when missiles are nerfed.

I wouldn't mind removing +shots or +might on any non-launcher as a possibility. Maybe, one item can have +1 shots and one can have +1 might in a game, but that's it.

[Shinedog]

I just finished a randart game where the palintir gave +3 shots. This was way too powerful. With a +2 sling of buckland, I had six shots per round. Sauron barely moved as I lined him up in a corridor and shot him down with acid shots. Morgy was a somewhat more difficult, but it was still seemed a bit unfair, as I was getting 4-6 shots with slay evil ammo and (4x and 5x) launchers. Until missle damage is nerfed, I wouldn't give more than +1 shots on any non-launcher slot.

[Magnate]

I just finished a randart game where the palintir gave +3 shots. This was way too powerful. With a +2 sling of buckland, I had six shots per round. Sauron barely moved as I lined him up in a corridor and shot him down with acid shots. Morgy was a somewhat more difficult, but it was still seemed a bit unfair, as I was getting 4-6 shots with slay evil ammo and (4x and 5x) launchers. Until missle damage is nerfed, I wouldn't give more than +1 shots on any non-launcher slot.

I think I agree with that, although I am rather pleased that the randart generator produced a palantir with +3 shots! Presumably it didn't have (m)any other qualities (a "supercharge", in randart terminology). But yes, it does sound rather unbalancing in the current environment.

Still, now that 3.1.2 is out I'm going to try and get Takk and the other devs to come to some kind of consensus around what the big objectives are for 3.1.3. If missile rebalancing is not happening in 3.1.3 then I definitely need to fix this randart issue. If it is happening, I need to review randarts after it's done.

@Eddie: great minds think alike. The current code has 16 power per extra off-weapon blow, and 50 per shot. Admittedly not as high as your 75, but no I wasn't shocked.

Now I come to think of it, the Palantir doesn't have anywhere near 150 power, so +3 shots should have been impossible. Shinedog: I don't suppose you have the randart.log file from that game??

EDIT: dammit, I'm a factor of two out. I'd forgotten that since power pricing power is measured in half points of damage, so Eddie's recommendations are that an offweapon blow is worth 30 power and an offweapon shot 150. So my 16 and 50 now look significantly different (and it explains why the palantir could get +3 shots). Yes, I'm inclined to agree with Eddie and double or triple the power for these until missile damage is sorted.

[PowerDiver]

@Eddie: great minds think alike. The current code has 16 power per extra off-weapon blow, and 50 per shot. Admittedly not as high as your 75, but no I wasn't shocked.

Well, let me shock you now. That 75 was using my most conservative estimate, *BEFORE* applying a correction factor. The fact that missiles allow you to fight disenchanters and charge and stat drainers without worry holding _heal and -telOther in your pack means that I believe missile damage should count 3 times as much as melee damage for comparison purposes. So up that 75 to 225, and I maintain that is a "conservative" estimate.

And that's before the doubling. I think that means I think the extra shot on an off slot is worth about 10 times what you had it set at. I don't expect you to agree with my evaluation, but I'm not exaggerating for effect. I really think it is that powerful.

My current warrior switched from melee to missiles when I found a haradrim xbow with +23 damage. That's an x4 launcher with +1 shot, and the class with the best possible melee uses it instead of melee for important fights. Imagine how much more unbalancing it is for a weak melee char with an x5 launcher who depends upon carrying staves.