Blows calculation for warriors

[Timo Pietilä]

Just checked what Magnate has done with Artifact.txt. Noticed that several weapons have been made lighter, so that warriors could get sixth blow with them (250 -> 240).

Wouldn't it be easier to change blows calculation for warriors so that they get max 5 blows like every other warrior-class and just give them one extra blow at the start of the game? Use Ranger calculation.

That way you can use heavier weapons with warrior from start of the game and not swap to lightest weapon you can buy at the start of the game (which BTW. feels weird: Cohen the Barbarian that prefers dagger over longsword), and use heavy weapons also at the deep levels too (Maces of Disruption etc.).

Should be easy change. Should also easy up balancing blows (unless there is already something being done with it).

[fizzix]

Cohen the Barbarian

That wacky Jew.

[d_m]

I would be fine with this, or with changing the way ranger calculation works, either way.

[Magnate]

I would be fine with this, or with changing the way ranger calculation works, either way.

IMO it is late to playtest this for 3.1.2, and with luck we'll move to fractional blows for 3.1.3, making this fix unnecessary.

But yes, I would not be opposed to giving warriors an extra blow from the start in the current system.

Thanks Timo for the feedback - I thought you of all people would notice the significance of 25lb -> 24lb.

[PowerDiver]

The whole blows thing needs to be reworked. This is a reasonable suggestion. Another option is to give half-classes +1 blow and give warriors +2 blows and make the table go steeply from 1 to 4.

I wish we could set things up so that at the end of the game there is a significant difference in stats favoring str and dex for warriors so that the 4/5/6 comes out naturally without using different multipliers, but that would pretty much require starting over with the design.

The problem with these approaches is that they mostly help the warriors more at the start, when they don't need it so much. I guess that is better than no change, but it feels weird.

NPP changes all 6's to 5's in the blows table and gives warriors an extra blow at CL 20 or 25 or something. Starting warriors still use daggers.

DaJ limits the STR damage bonus to the weapon weight in lbs. That encourages warriors to start with short swords IIRC. [but I rarely remember correctly ]

[Nick]

Wouldn't it be easier to change blows calculation for warriors so that they get max 5 blows like every other warrior-class and just give them one extra blow at the start of the game? Use Ranger calculation.

O-combat! *ducks*

[ekolis]

Is O the one with fractional blows? Yeah, how come shots are fractional but blows are choppy, anyway?

[Timo Pietilä]

IMO it is late to playtest this for 3.1.2, and with luck we'll move to fractional blows for 3.1.3, making this fix unnecessary.
.

Fractional blows? How exactly? Hit until you have exhausted your blows or oppnent is killed (minimal impact to gameplay, unless fighting multiple weak opponents), or each blow separately (like missile-weapons)?

[d_m]

Fractional blows? How exactly? Hit until you have exhausted your blows or oppnent is killed (minimal impact to gameplay, unless fighting multiple weak opponents)

The first. Everyone agrees (I think) that divying up individual blows would get really tiresome.

[TJS]

Ah I thought (and was hoping) fractional blows was that for example between getting 1 and 2 blows for a weapon you get a percentage chance of another blow depending on how close you are to getting that second blow.

Is there any chance of getting that implemented as well?

[Derakon]

Random chances of extra blows would render the speed calculations unpredictable, and knowing when you and your opponents are next going to get a turn is an important part of gameplay. If you did the "one direction push = one blow" approach then you could just gradually decrease the amount of energy needed for each blow, though. Maximum of 100 energy, minimum of 16 energy (6 blows/round), could take anywhere in-between depending on your gear.

[PowerDiver]

Fractional blows? How exactly? Hit until you have exhausted your blows or oppnent is killed (minimal impact to gameplay, unless fighting multiple weak opponents), or each blow separately (like missile-weapons)?

The way I would do it is that when you melee, you are in repeat mode. Each blow takes 100/numblows energy. So say you have 3.5 blows, each would use 29 energy.

Then, you repeat until disturbed, probably by the monster moving. When disturbed, you will have at least 100-29 = 71 energy. There might need to be a way to say to do a full round despite disturbance, but that would wait for playtesting.

This would stop double-moves during melee. You would get 7 blows evenly spread out throughout your double-speed opponent's 4 moves. This would also eliminate hack-and-back, because against a half-speed opp you would get 7 blows between its attacks.

[Pete Mack]

Eddie--I don't think that would work, quite. Imagine you're in the entrance of an orc pit, with 80 orcs all at slightly different time offsets. Even if you are at speed +20, there will be almost one monster move per blow, on average (assuming 5 blows.)

But I do like the basic idea.

[PowerDiver]

Eddie--I don't think that would work, quite. Imagine you're in the entrance of an orc pit, with 80 orcs all at slightly different time offsets. Even if you are at speed +20, there will be almost one monster move per blow, on average (assuming 5 blows.)

But I do like the basic idea.

When you are at speed +20 with 5 blows, you will be killing each orc with a single blow so that's not really a problem. More seriously ...

That's what I meant by "There might need to be a way to say to do a full round despite disturbance". Perhaps the run command at an adjacent monster could mean that.

Another option is multiple disturbance modes. E.g. a monster moving in LOS only disturbs if it has a distance attack that can reach you, during your repeated melee phase. There are certainly details to be worked out. I think it should be feasible, but only playtesting will answer that.

[Pete Mack]

When you are at speed +20 with 5 blows, you will be killing each orc with a single blow so that's not really a problem.

There already is a version of this in other variants, called spread blows, which is granted to warriors around dl 25. After a monster is killed, you are given your remaining blows to attack something else (like a mob of surrounding orcs--one or two blows each, while the next 8 move in.)

I agree it is feasible, and desirable. (I was mostly playing devil's advocate to make the wheel squeek some more. And any other appropriate metaphors I might add to the mix.)