Stairscumming

[Derakon]

Once you step on that last stair, couldn't you step on the stair previous to that, and so on until you reach the same level you just came from?

That's what the maze is for, of course. You can easily get back onto the staircase, but even the smartest and wisest of adventurers quickly gets befuddled by the incredibly complex labyrinths that are hidden just off-screen during normal play.

[fizzix]

..all of your options involve having spells or equipment that you often don't have in the early game. (At least I often don't have them yet)

To be fair, DJA is much more brutal in the early game than V. I have to go fairly slow in DJA until I can teleport-self or buy a staff of teleportation.

[buzzkill]

Some how we got off topic and the main issue of this thread was never addressed, which is why does stair scumming take no energy?

I can see the argument that you don't to to get unavoidably instakilled very often doing something as necessary as taking the down staircase, so you should have the first move on every new level, but taking the stairs should still take energy.

Beyond that, let's discuss the up staircase. Let's be realistic, you're not taking the up staircase because you're headed back to town, it's because you're either fleeing something, or scumming. Both should involve additional risk, and the player should not be guaranteed the first move going up stairs.

[Derakon]

If you should always get the first move when you go down stairs, then you should always get the first move when you go up stairs, if only for consistency. It's what the player expects to have happen.

"Taking energy" with respect to taking stairs only has relevance to timers; I don't think this is a major issue. It probably should take a turn to traverse stairs, though. Not more than that, since, again, the player has no reasonable expectation that it would take a long time.

[PowerDiver]

I can see the argument that you don't to to get unavoidably instakilled very often doing something as necessary as taking the down staircase, so you should have the first move on every new level, but taking the stairs should still take energy.

The main loop is an energy loop. The way you give the char a free move is to use no energy. Getting around that requires some sort of redesign which is not thought to be worth the bother.

If I was in control, level change would take a turn and monsters could breathe the first turn if they beat you on some implied initiative roll. I think level change should be dangerous. But I'm a meanie.

[RogerN]

If taking the stairs used energy, I would put all staircases in small empty rooms with closed doors leading to the rest of the level. It would still be possible to get insta-killed by a fast monster, but it would be very improbable. Most of the time players would have a small safe haven in which to use detection spells before venturing forth.

Obviously I'm not much of a meanie.

[Nick]

How about having every staircase end in a drop, so there's no up staircase. And you fall and are cut and stunned. And surrounded by hasted Time Hounds.

[Timo Pietilä]

You are now guaranteed the first move on a new level, so you cannot be instakilled.

When was this introduced? I have not heard of it before. 3.1.1?

[PowerDiver]

How about having every staircase end in a drop, so there's no up staircase. And you fall and are cut and stunned. And surrounded by hasted Time Hounds.

That would make sense if there were staircases.

However, what are mistakingly referred to as stairs are really level teleporters that place the traveler on a random point in the next level, so the monsters don't know where to plan their ambush.

[Timo Pietilä]

That would make sense if there were staircases.

However, what are mistakingly referred to as stairs are really level teleporters that place the traveler on a random point in the next level, so the monsters don't know where to plan their ambush.

That also explains "why there is a town at the top of the Angband". :-)

Somehow I just got image in my mind from TV-series "Stargate" where O'Neill wonders how Tokra is able to know where to stand for ring-teleporters to work...

[tigen]

I think having the stairs be a magical zone of infinite safety is cheesy. One solution is obviously the disconnected stairs flag.

How about this proposal?

1) stairs: They take a turn (100 energy), but that energy is spent "initiating" the command. So it says "you start taking the {up,down} stair", and energy is used normally, and then monsters can get a turn (or more, if they are hasted or you were slowed). After you have enough energy to move again, you finish taking the stairs (automatically). This final move is "free" which guarantees you the first move on the next level.

This way, taking stairs still takes energy, but you still get the free move to start a level. And stairs are connected. But if you try to use the stair to immediately escape, you will take a turn first. So if you find yourself in a dangerous spot, you must use some other means of escape to be safe.


2) down chutes or shafts: drop you one-way with no return path, but take no energy to use. You get a free turn on the other end.


edit: Another thing you can do with stairs is to have a small chance of it "crumbling away". So if you are really scumming it up and down it will eventually crumble and force you to actually navigate a level. You could also tweak this various ways, like have counter that gets incremented by a certain chunk (say, 20) when you take a stairs but decremented with each turn, and if the counter value is 0 it definitely won't crumble, but otherwise the chance gets higher depending on the counter.

Actually you'd probably want that to be 2 counters: one for up and one for down, and each counter only affects you if you take the opposite stair direction (so it would only affect bouncing between 2 levels).

[Nightmarjoo]

I like everything you just said, and I'd like to see it all implemented, sometimes you go down a chute, sometimes the stairs crumble, sometimes they're still there but it takes energy (but you get the first turn anyway).

[tigen]

There aren't any shafts in vanilla right now are there? Other than trap doors. I know some variants have 'em. I'm thinking chutes/shafts could potentially take you more than one level down. Shafts could hurt you without feather falling but not chutes.

[Magnate]

When was this introduced? I have not heard of it before. 3.1.1?

According to http://trac.rephial.org/ticket/792 it was done 7 months ago, for 3.1.1.

[tom042]

How about having every staircase end in a drop, so there's no up staircase. And you fall and are cut and stunned. And surrounded by hasted Time Hounds.

They are the "Pits of Angband." Morgoth has no regard for the ADA.