Stairscumming

[Nightmarjoo]

Uses no energy, is this intended? For example if you're dying of poison and have no antidote and will surely die without medical aid, you can go up and down a staircase a million times until you spawn next to a potion of neutralization or healing etc, not that I've done this...

[fizzix]

the easy solution is to play with disconnected stairs.

[tummychow]

Who plays with connected stairs anyway? totally reduces the game challenge.

[fizzix]

Who plays with connected stairs anyway? totally reduces the game challenge.

The same people that play with a light source.

Amateurs.

[Magnate]

The same people that play with a light source.

Amateurs.

Funny, but a little harsh. I turned off connected stairs in order to force myself to dive (you are far more likely to find a down stair than an up stair). Now turning them on feels like cheating - but I think it is an important safety feature for new players.

[fizzix]

Funny, but a little harsh. I turned off connected stairs in order to force myself to dive (you are far more likely to find a down stair than an up stair). Now turning them on feels like cheating - but I think it is an important safety feature for new players.

I agree with this. I was just being facetious. Both options are fine.

[will_asher]

I don't get the thing about playing with connected stairs. How could that be considered cheating?

1) It makes no sense to have just come down stairs and then there be no stairs up. Where are the stairs you just came down? If it's a chute, call it that, but that would be kindof silly to have all of passages down be chutes.

2) Escape is one of the most important parts of the game. Sometimes you go down the stairs and are surrounded by monsters. Sometimes this happens before you have a means of teleportation. Sometimes it takes a while for me to gather enough gold for a staff of teleportation, and then they're not guaranteed in stock.

3) I would not mind if other means were implemented to prevent level scumming, but I need those up stairs.

PS: I've even played with no light source for a while. (darkvision helps)

[Magnate]

I don't get the thing about playing with connected stairs. How could that be considered cheating?

I said it feels like cheating to me - because of how it makes me behave. I pass no judgement on others.

1) It makes no sense to have just come down stairs and then there be no stairs up. Where are the stairs you just came down? If it's a chute, call it that, but that would be kindof silly to have all of passages down be chutes.

Don't you remember the original "you enter a maze of twisting passageways"? Stairs have always been one-way, ever since Rogue.

2) Escape is one of the most important parts of the game. Sometimes you go down the stairs and are surrounded by monsters. Sometimes this happens before you have a means of teleportation. Sometimes it takes a while for me to gather enough gold for a staff of teleportation, and then they're not guaranteed in stock.

3) I would not mind if other means were implemented to prevent level scumming, but I need those up stairs.

You don't, honest. You are now guaranteed the first move on a new level, so you cannot be instakilled. If you come down into a room full of time hounds, you have a boatload of options:

- create doors (if nothing is adjacent to you)
- tel level
- deep descent
- *destruction*
- earthquake
- tel self
- banishment or mass banish

Etc. Forcing yourself to rely on these instead of up stairs will improve your play. At least, it did for me.

[miyazaki]

I don't get the thing about playing with connected stairs. How could that be considered cheating?

It's not cheating, he just said it feels like it. Try ironman for a while. When you switch back to regular, it feels sooooo easy to pop up to the town to buy CCW/!restorewhatever. I felt guilty when I switched off ironman.

[Marble Dice]

I don't get the thing about playing with connected stairs. How could that be considered cheating?

1) It makes no sense to have just come down stairs and then there be no stairs up. Where are the stairs you just came down? If it's a chute, call it that, but that would be kindof silly to have all of passages down be chutes.

2) Escape is one of the most important parts of the game. Sometimes you go down the stairs and are surrounded by monsters. Sometimes this happens before you have a means of teleportation. Sometimes it takes a while for me to gather enough gold for a staff of teleportation, and then they're not guaranteed in stock.

3) I would not mind if other means were implemented to prevent level scumming, but I need those up stairs.

PS: I've even played with no light source for a while. (darkvision helps)

I usually play with connected stairs but I'll only reroll the level if I come down into the middle of a room, don't have teleport yet, the stairway is adjacent to a horde of orcs, and there's some casters scattered about for good measure. That's really my only complaint with disconnected stairs, enemies can get placed very close to the player. If I actually had control of my character while he was "navigating the maze of stairways," I wouldn't put him in a position like that. I assume then every stairway must therefore end with a blind 20 foot drop to the next level?

The gameplay effect isn't too bad, I don't mind recall or down stairways being "risky moves," but it can lead to more or less unavoidable deaths in the 600' neighborhood (before you have any realistic means of escape). Maybe force monster placement on new dungeon levels to obey a safe distance from the player (similar to spawn-in behavior), whereby the radius decreases with the depth of the level? Then by around 1000', you wouldn't have any guarantees (like it is now).

[Magnate]

The gameplay effect isn't too bad, I don't mind recall or down stairways being "risky moves," but it can lead to more or less unavoidable deaths in the 600' neighborhood (before you have any realistic means of escape).

Dude, how often do you encounter those? You're talking about the first trip down (which tends to end about 800' for me, but I know others go past 1000'). I can't remember the last time I died "unavoidably" on the first trip - they're almost always stupid mistakes, or the dogs.

I guess the big difference would be if you play unstealthy characters. I almost always play rangers or rogues, so I can come down in a room full of sleeping orcs and creep to an exit before any significant number wake up.

[Marble Dice]

Dude, how often do you encounter those? You're talking about the first trip down (which tends to end about 800' for me, but I know others go past 1000'). I can't remember the last time I died "unavoidably" on the first trip - they're almost always stupid mistakes, or the dogs.

I guess the big difference would be if you play unstealthy characters. I almost always play rangers or rogues, so I can come down in a room full of sleeping orcs and creep to an exit before any significant number wake up.

Dwarf Priest lately, so there you go.

[will_asher]

Don't you remember the original "you enter a maze of twisting passageways"? Stairs have always been one-way, ever since Rogue.

One-way meaning you can't go back to the same level you came from. When you step off the last stair, there should be stair you can step back on to unless they suddenly dissapeared. (or unless, like Marble Dice said, there's a 20ft drop at the end of every staircase)

You don't, honest. You are now guaranteed the first move on a new level, so you cannot be instakilled. If you come down into a room full of time hounds, you have a boatload of options: ...

..Sometimes this happens before you have a means of teleportation. Sometimes it takes a while for me to gather enough gold for a staff of teleportation, and then they're not guaranteed in stock.

..all of your options involve having spells or equipment that you often don't have in the early game. (At least I often don't have them yet)

[Bill Peterson]

Funny, the first time I turned on preserve artifacts I "felt like I was cheating" But that was back in the days when clearing every level and playing like the borg were acceptable strategies. I wonder how many of the current day divers play with preserve off, if they do then they must stay on a level long enough to get level feelings.

[tigen]

When you step off the last stair, there should be stair you can step back on to unless they suddenly dissapeared. (or unless, like Marble Dice said, there's a 20ft drop at the end of every staircase)

The logic commands you to return.
The logic touches you.
You are confused!
You feel a sudden stirring nearby!
The logic blinks away.

Once you step on that last stair, couldn't you step on the stair previous to that, and so on until you reach the same level you just came from?

Anyway, regarding scumming taking no energy, I'm not sure why that would be. Doesn't it take a turn? If it doesn't it's probably a bug. I just looked at the source and it looks like stair commands wants to take one turn. Maybe it should take up more than one turn though, especially since it is a bigger journey than a simple step into a room (what with that twisting maze and all). It could take a random amount.