speed display

[fizzix]

There was a discussion on the recharge time in the thread on the r1683 bugs thread. In that discussion, someone (I think Eddie) suggested that turns be replaced with number of seconds, 10 seconds making a normal turn. I think this was dropped from the conversation, but I want to bring it back up.

Right now, the speed calculation is very opaque. It's one of those complicated table calculations where if you want to know exactly what your speed multiplier translates to, you have to look it up. Nevertheless, you learn from experience or spoilers that +10 = twice as fast as 0, and +20 is three times as fast. This is not apparent at all to a new player, and this is a problem. Even veterans are unlikely to tell you how many turns you get compared to a normal speed monster if your speed is +7 or +14.

I recommend altering the display, adding another line after the +/- speed line where it says something like 1 turn = 10.0 seconds. (you could conceivably add a second line that says 1 shot = 10.0 seconds. AFAIK that is the only action that takes more or less time.)

Then as you increase your speed, you can see exactly how fast you are in a straightforward and easily understandable way. Then, all recharge times can be changed to seconds, all spell durations can be changed to seconds (or are they player turns? either way, you can choose) All monster descriptions should be changed to, "takes about 20.0, 10.0, 5.0, 3.3, or 2.5 seconds to move."

[PowerDiver]

I think the 'C' screen should display speed as a percentage. +0 speed = 100%. -10 speed = 50%. +30 speed = 380%. I.e. display energy * 10% rather than the speed difference.

[Magnate]

I think the 'C' screen should display speed as a percentage. +0 speed = 100%. -10 speed = 50%. +30 speed = 380%. I.e. display energy * 10% rather than the speed difference.

I think this is better than using seconds.

[takkaria]

I think the 'C' screen should display speed as a percentage. +0 speed = 100%. -10 speed = 50%. +30 speed = 380%. I.e. display energy * 10% rather than the speed difference.

Works for me.

[tummychow]

Will we still be able to see the number?

[Magnate]

Will we still be able to see the number?

Depends how it's implemented. There isn't a lot of space on the main screen status bar, so I think we have to choose between the number and the percent - but I may be wrong. Certainly you can show both on the C screen, because there's a spare row.

[buzzkill]

I think this is better than using seconds.

That's a little better. I can't help but think that there an even better solution.

In any case, adding Haste and Slow flags to the status area would eliminate any confusion concerning the speed altering effects that you are experiencing.
I'm assuming that
1) all hasting and slowing have equal effects,
2) you can only be subject to one form or haste, or slow, or one of each at a time, and
3) that all forms of haste or slow, active simultaneously, will negate each other.

Now that I think about it, I'm confused. How does slow work? Is it a 50% reduction, or -10? I thought it was -10, but -10 would paralyze you at normal speed.

[PowerDiver]

Now that I think about it, I'm confused. How does slow work? Is it a 50% reduction, or -10? I thought it was -10, but -10 would paralyze you at normal speed.

0 speed = 10 energy, and -10 speed = 5 energy, so no paralysis.

I'm not positive % is best. Whether normal speed should be displayed 100% or 10 energy is not clear to me. In the later game, when everyone is running around at 200% or 300% it may look a bit silly.

[Lord Tom]

2 suggestions I'd make regarding the speed system, each solving one of the above problems:

1. Put a monster's speed relative to the player on the monster memory screen:

Sauron
...moves very quickly (76% your current speed)...

Morgoth
...moves incredibly quickly (300% your current speed)... [uh oh...]

This way instead of remembering conversions, one can instantly check the relative speed of a monster that's in front of you (or has been seen in the past) without running a time trial.

2. As PowerDiver suggested -- have the displayed player speed be energy based, in some format. This solves the problem of having to guess or memorize the declining effects of additional speed at higher levels.

If I'm deciding to weigh a 10% increase in combat power and whether it's worth my speed going from +38 to +33, it'd be useful to know in a concrete way how that speed change translates to an energy change.

[Magnate]

That's a little better. I can't help but think that there an even better solution.

In any case, adding Haste and Slow flags to the status area would eliminate any confusion concerning the speed altering effects that you are experiencing.
I'm assuming that
1) all hasting and slowing have equal effects,
2) you can only be subject to one form or haste, or slow, or one of each at a time, and
3) that all forms of haste or slow, active simultaneously, will negate each other.

Now that I think about it, I'm confused. How does slow work? Is it a 50% reduction, or -10? I thought it was -10, but -10 would paralyze you at normal speed.

Er, don't think so. IIUC -10 is precisely a 50% reduction at normal speed.

I like your idea of adding a Haste/Slow field to the status line, separate from the speed. Does anyone know if there is space for this if all the other temp effects are on?

[Magnate]

I don't agree that energy should be referred to at all, as it's no clearer or friendlier than the speed stat itself. I don't mind the suggestion of relative speed in monster recall though, that's quite good (if a little complex to implement).

I don't think Eddie's objections to using speed as % are significant. 100% is obvious, as is 50% or 200%. So what if everyone has ~300% at the endgame?

[buzzkill]

0 speed = 10 energy, and -10 speed = 5 energy, so no paralysis.

See, this is why I'm confused... You just stated that 10-10=5.

Er, don't think so. IIUC -10 is precisely a 50% reduction at normal speed.

This doesn't make sense either. (10-10=5 again)

I know that normal speed=10, slowed=5, 1/2, a reduction of 5.
I know that normal hasted=20, slowed=10, 1/2, a reduction of 10.
What about speed=15, slowed=5 or slowed=7.5 ???
What about speed=25, slowed=15 or slowed=12.5 ???
What about speed=40, slowed=30 or slowed=20 ???

Is it either (speed/2) or (speed-10) whichever is less?

[Magnate]

See, this is why I'm confused... You just stated that 10-10=5.



This doesn't make sense either. (10-10=5 again)

I know that normal speed=10, slowed=5, 1/2, a reduction of 5.
I know that normal hasted=20, slowed=10, 1/2, a reduction of 10.
What about speed=15, slowed=5 or slowed=7.5 ???
What about speed=25, slowed=15 or slowed=12.5 ???
What about speed=40, slowed=30 or slowed=20 ???

Is it either (speed/2) or (speed-10) whichever is less?

This is precisely why we need to change the display. Speed is converted to energy by a nonlinear table in the code. Normal speed (+0) means 10 energy per turn. -10 speed means 5 energy per turn, which is 50% as fast. +10 speed means 20 energy per turn, twice as fast. But beyond +20 speed diminishing returns kick in.

[PowerDiver]

So what if everyone has ~300% at the endgame?

Don't you find it annoying when some sports figure talks about giving 110%? Percentages should generally top out at 100%. OTOH, if 50 energy = 100%, then people will be confused to start at 20% and will wonder why they never get close to 100%. Perhaps Morgoth's energy should be 100%? I just don't know what 100% should mean.

I released a patch with starting speed = 100%, so clearly at one time I couldn't think of anything better, but I have never been happy about it.

[Lord Tom]

I don't agree that energy should be referred to at all, as it's no clearer or friendlier than the speed stat itself.

What I meant was not to display the actual energy, but rather to display something which is proportional to energy, i.e. varies linearly with the actual speed the player moves at.

Choosing what to display is difficult -- having Morgoth's speed be 100% and everything slower a percentage of that (as suggested above) seems reasonable to me.

IMO, it's conceptually simpler for a newbie to accept that speed starts at 20 (or whatever it would be) and maxes out at 100 than to wrap their heads around the current system.

In any case, this is a great problem to tackle. I love how recent versions have made increased use of small speed bonuses; it makes item selection choices a lot richer.