Randarts

[Psi]

Aggravation is not limited to the exact same items that aggravate in the standard set. It's limited to items above a certain power level (like, say, branded rings with lots of stat bonuses and high resists), and it turns out that roughly half as many randarts aggravate in any given set.

What percentage of items over that power limit aggravate? I found a longbow (+22,+6) (+3 to power) which aggravated. Had it been (+6,+22) I'd have been a little more miffed...

[PowerDiver]

Aggravation is not limited to the exact same items that aggravate in the standard set. It's limited to items above a certain power level (like, say, branded rings with lots of stat bonuses and high resists), and it turns out that roughly half as many randarts aggravate in any given set.

I giving up completely on randarts due to aggravation. I've decided even with the added fun of the surprise of discovery, aggr turns the total impact on fun into a large negative.


In the current set, let's see how it plays out.

Palantir - truly uber
The One - bug, should be a stealth bonus, in any case too rare and uber to matter
Razorback - aggr turns it into a swap item until you find a better source of ImmElec such as Taratol which you usually have already, then junk - let's just call it junk compared to non-ego multi DSM
Mediator - aggr means I would prefer ordinary balance scale, i.e. this is junk
Hammerhand - aggr turns into junk
Gorlim - starts as junk
Eol - starts as junk
Camlost - starts as junk
Calris - truly uber
Zarcuthra - would be great, but aggr turns it into a swap
Mormegil - starts as junk
Anguirel - aggr turns into junk
Doomcaller - truly uber
Melkor - aggr turns into swap weapon, still dubious without
Deathwreaker - truly uber
Gothmog - aggr turns into swap
Umbar - semi-uber, only interesting because of con bonus, else aggr would mean junk
Haradrim - like Umbar

IMO the game would be more fun with no aggr on any but Calris and Deathwreaker and Palantir. I don't see the point of the others. But let's accept the standard set as a model.

In the main set, aggr is either on a swap weapon or on an item that gives 2 more con than any ego for the slot, or is truly uber. Or lots of junk. The point is that aggr is applied carefully. When you randomly place it on any item of a certain power, the result is usually a bad collection. Essentially, you are randomly deleting a substantial proportion of fun items from the middle game.

I say limit aggr to weapons with 4 of
(1) 2 extra dice
(2) a KILL flag
(3) an immunity
(4) a big con bonus (4+)
(5) slay evil

For non-weapons, it needs to have 2 of
(1) con bonus 2+
(2) ESP
(3) two high resists besides ESP [beyond the base item]
I'm not sure that is enough, but it might be. Maybe should also require a utility activation.

I guess maybe a big enough speed bonus could replace one of those requirements.

[dhegler]

Theoretically, randarts make the number of artifacts you can find limitless, correct? Whereas playing with normal artifacts limits you to what have been programmed in already, correct?

[Nick]

Theoretically, randarts make the number of artifacts you can find limitless, correct?

No. The game creates a new set of artifacts at character creation time, based on the standard ones (roughly, each standard one is taken and turned into a new object with different, but roughly equivalent in strength, powers).

Whereas playing with normal artifacts limits you to what have been programmed in already, correct?

Correct.

Aggravation: takkaria is planning a redo of curses/negative effects (currently planned for 3.1.2...). Presumably that will necessitate a rework of all objects, particularly artifacts, and there will need to be changes to randart generation. So I would think the current situation won't last too long.

[Magnate]

Aggravation: takkaria is planning a redo of curses/negative effects (currently planned for 3.1.2...). Presumably that will necessitate a rework of all objects, particularly artifacts, and there will need to be changes to randart generation. So I would think the current situation won't last too long.

Hmmm. I don't expect much change to randart generation in 3.1.2 - I think if Takkaria planned major changes, I would have heard by now. I accept that reworking curses and other negative abilities will require some changes, but my current understanding is that they get phased in gradually, i.e. they don't break the existing randart generator straight away. I could be wrong though. In any event I'd be happy to see aggravation reworked as some sort of stealth penalty.

I am a bit surprised that Eddie is still so upset by aggravating randarts, when there are now only about half a dozen that aggravate in an entire set. True, it is impossible to place aggravation as carefully as in the standard set, but I'd have thought that the randart sets were still usable overall. They certainly work fine for me - I haven't found any aggavators at all yet.

[Magnate]

What percentage of items over that power limit aggravate? I found a longbow (+22,+6) (+3 to power) which aggravated. Had it been (+6,+22) I'd have been a little more miffed...

It uses a cumulative frequency table which depends on how many aggravating items are in artifact.txt, but with an extra test that it has to be above a certain power level - so aggravating items should really all be "uber" in Eddie's terms. The net result is that about half as many items aggravate as in the standard set.

[PowerDiver]

I am a bit surprised that Eddie is still so upset by aggravating randarts, when there are now only about half a dozen that aggravate in an entire set. True, it is impossible to place aggravation as carefully as in the standard set, but I'd have thought that the randart sets were still usable overall. They certainly work fine for me - I haven't found any aggavators at all yet.

Aggravation is only acceptable IMO on an uber swap weapon. Swap armors are not useful. The randart generation carefully selects the armors I would like to wear, and seemingly plops aggravation on half of them.

Most artifacts are junk. I define a junk artifact to mean that I would prefer to get a random ego on the base item to the particular artifact, perhaps because I already have something better in the slot. 6 is a significant proportion of non-junk artifacts.

I'm just describing my gaming experiences. I toss junk artifact after junk artifact on the ground, finally find one that would make me happy to use it, and then don't use it because it aggravates. This is the opposite of fun. Not all of my games go this way, but too many have, and the last one pushed me over the edge.

[Magnate]

Aggravation is only acceptable IMO on an uber swap weapon. Swap armors are not useful. The randart generation carefully selects the armors I would like to wear, and seemingly plops aggravation on half of them.

Most artifacts are junk. I define a junk artifact to mean that I would prefer to get a random ego on the base item to the particular artifact, perhaps because I already have something better in the slot. 6 is a significant proportion of non-junk artifacts.

I'm just describing my gaming experiences. I toss junk artifact after junk artifact on the ground, finally find one that would make me happy to use it, and then don't use it because it aggravates. This is the opposite of fun. Not all of my games go this way, but too many have, and the last one pushed me over the edge.

Ok - thanks for the explanation, and I'm sorry to hear that it's not fun. My experience is very different, because in 99% of games I die before finding more than half a dozen artifacts - none of them aggravate, and almost all of them are better than what I have at the time (apart from the obviously crummy 'thanc-derivatives).

I would be happy to make the randart generator more intelligent about applying aggravation. Obviously there's no need to do too much, as aggravation itself should eventually get reworked, but in the meantime how about this:

melee weapons and launchers only over a certain damage output
no body armours at all (maybe uber-robes?)
other armour items only if they have +blows, CON >= +4, speed >= +10, ... anything else?
conditions for jewelry and light sources: lots of resists? speed?

[PowerDiver]

I think aggravation is a terrible idea. Basically, it is a curse that forces you to stop using strategy and tactics, and play like a tank. You'll never get me to agree that it should be on anything. It is just more egregious in some cases than in others. Thew question is what I will put up with, and I don't know any more. Something snapped, and my tolerance will be permanently less than it was.

It's also not about power. Would the standard game be improved by plopping aggravation on Thorin and Narya and Cambeleg just because they are uber? I say no.

You put the curse on an item to tell the player you don't want him to use it until the endgame. You'll have to figure out for yourself which items you think the player will be happy to use only sparingly in the middle game.

[Magnate]

I'm inclined just to leave things as they are until Takkaria decides how to fix aggravation!

[Nick]

Hmmm. I don't expect much change to randart generation in 3.1.2 - I think if Takkaria planned major changes, I would have heard by now.

Agreed - I'm just quoting from the roadmap on trac for effect. The point is, it's one of the next major changes planned.

[Bagplant]

I'm just describing my gaming experiences. I toss junk artifact after junk artifact on the ground, finally find one that would make me happy to use it, and then don't use it because it aggravates.

Bear in mind that those two things may be related. Aggravation has a negative rating and the item gets extra powers to compensate for it. Without aggravation it might have been another junk artifact like the ones you discarded.

[Matthias]

I think aggravation is a terrible idea. Basically, it is a curse that forces you to stop using strategy and tactics, and play like a tank.

But there is a middle ground here. It is totally possible to play with aggravation, even with mages. You'll have a harder time, but the item is supposed to make up for it. The characters that it doesn't work for at all are those that depend mostly on stealth to survive. Yes it is a bad idea to use an aggravating item with a +0 speed 450hp character on dlvl98, but that's because of the diving playstyle, not aggravation.

[Magnate]

Bear in mind that those two things may be related. Aggravation has a negative rating and the item gets extra powers to compensate for it. Without aggravation it might have been another junk artifact like the ones you discarded.

That was true for a long time, but I changed it recently, because I decided that negative attributes (like aggravation, xp drain etc.) are not comparable on a like-for-like basis with positive ones. So I abandoned rating them, and now deal with them totally separately. So unfortunately Eddie is right: his great artifacts do just randomly get aggravation added if they surpass a certain power level and fail a dice roll.

[Zikke]

Just found this bad boy on my randart Rogue:

The Bastard Sword of Alancar (3d4) (+14, +14) (+3)

+3 STR, +3 attacks
Slays animals, evil creatures
*Slays* undead
Branded with Lightning


8 blows/round for around 560 damage per round (690 vs. undead) and I'm not at max stats yet. And amazing, no aggravate or other curse.

O_o

Randarts are fun!