Do we need points based stat generation at all?

[Polyonymous]

I've been playing around with it for a while now and can discern no major pattern. I've tried best fits of various shapes and sizes. I'm going to guess that the table was generated by a function originally and hacked manually over time (did it used to cap at 5 blows for all characters? the 6 blows items in the table aren't distributed like the rest of the table).

My best fit when I use the whole table (using the low dex index numbers is debatable as they're essentially outliers for really low dex) looks like

blows = (3 * str_index + 4 * dex_index + 7)/12 (capped at 1 and 6)

I tried fitting with a cap of 5 blows. Also tried including str_index^2, dex_index^2, and str_index * dex_index factors. I tried normalizing the dex_index to the stat values to compensate for the fact that the early notches are a bit further apart. I tried modelling as energy/blow instead of blows/round. I tried all combinations of the given variations. None of them significantly improved the fit. The correlation between the equation above and the actual data points is 93.26%.

If using actual dex values (may seem nicer as then the dex_index lookup can be removed), the formula would be

blows = (10 * str_index + 5 * dex_linear {3 = 3, 18/150 = 33} - 27)/40 again capped at 1 and 6.

I'd be curious to see how the table has changed over time to see what it originally was and how it became what it is now.

[Magnate]

This was indeed other people's point, but not mine. I want to know why the blows table has the entries in it that it does. There are two possibilities:

1. Someone back in the mists of time filled in the table based on how they thought it should work or
2. The table is an approximation to some function of DEX and STR/(weapon weight).

My guess is that it is the latter, but I'm wondering if anyone knows this to be the case, and if so if they know what function.

Hmmm. My guess is the former - it's one of many completely arbitrary sequences in the stat tables. There is no evidence of the original designers using complex formulae to determine anything (and with the DEX values as they are it would have to be pretty complex), so I doubt there's a hidden formula here.

[Nick]

@Nick--
The point is that DEX up to 15 is pretty average; there has to be some cut-off above 15 to get to the next column in the blows table. Whether that should be 18/10 (which is high for anybody except rogues, dunadan or high-elves) or 17, which is feasible for many classes, is a matter of degree.

This was indeed other people's point, but not mine. I want to know why the blows table has the entries in it that it does. There are two possibilities:

1. Someone back in the mists of time filled in the table based on how they thought it should work or
2. The table is an approximation to some function of DEX and STR/(weapon weight).

My guess is that it is the latter, but I'm wondering if anyone knows this to be the case, and if so if they know what function.

[Pete Mack]

@Nick--
The point is that DEX up to 15 is pretty average; there has to be some cut-off above 15 to get to the next column in the blows table. Whether that should be 18/10 (which is high for anybody except rogues, dunadan or high-elves) or 17, which is feasible for many classes, is a matter of degree.

[Nick]

http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/attack.spo

The site also has some other useful spoilers

Thanks, but I was after how the blows table was constructed. I'm guessing it's an approximation to some function of strength/weight and dex, and I was hoping that someone else does know.

[Jungle_Boy]

http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/attack.spo

The site also has some other useful spoilers

[Nick]

DEX determines which column is used in the "blows table". Columns are for DEX 10, 18/10, 18/50, 18/70, 18/90 and every /10 after that (to 18/150 max).

Can anyone tell me how the blows table was arrived at? I've had a quick go at reverse engineering it, but I think it may be more efficient to ask someone who (a) actually knows and (b) is not in my current pre-coffee fog.

[Magnate]

Count me among these - what's the difference?

Plus i must say I never have been able to figure exactly the impact of STR and DEX (plus weapon weight) on number of blows, it's always been a process of trial and error in my case - possibly a detailed table in a spoiler file might be enough to provide the required info

Or you can just look in tables.c

DEX determines which column is used in the "blows table". Columns are for DEX 10, 18/10, 18/50, 18/70, 18/90 and every /10 after that (to 18/150 max).

DEX also affects things like +hit, +AC, disarming traps and avoiding thievery - but the big difference is that many characters will get an extra blow with many weapons at 18/10 DEX. Exactly how many blows is a function of STR, class and weapon weight. It's non-trivial.

[bebo]

The problem is, what about people who do not yet know that raising your dex from 12 to 18 has no discernible effect, but raising it from 18 to 18/10 is game-changing?

Count me among these - what's the difference?

Plus i must say I never have been able to figure exactly the impact of STR and DEX (plus weapon weight) on number of blows, it's always been a process of trial and error in my case - possibly a detailed table in a spoiler file might be enough to provide the required info

[PowerDiver]

Why all the discussion? Just let players use whatever they want for their stats.

The problem is, what about people who do not yet know that raising your dex from 12 to 18 has no discernible effect, but raising it from 18 to 18/10 is game-changing? When you make the rules artificial and non-intuitive, you have an obligation to do something to help a novice to start with a more playable char.

[buzzkill]

Why all the discussion? Just let players use whatever they want for their stats. If someone wants to start out with all stats maxed out, let them. What's the difference? Just have the RNG roll some numbers (or not) and let the player alter them in any way he/she sees fit.

[TJS]

Stat distribution adds to the customizability and therefore replayability of each race/class combo. Don't think you'd want to give that up. Making it more accessible to the new user could be accomplished by including optimized savefiles in bundled zipfile, or including recommendations in the online help.

It would add to the customisation of characters, but I get the impression that more experienced players stick to a simple formula when choosing characters. I guess it is good to have the option there if you want it.

One simple approach would be to have "standard" point distributions for every race/class combination and allow re-distribution from that start point.

I like this idea. It would save me a lot of wondering if I've made a daft choice when I pick a character combo that I wouldn't normally choose.

There are too many combos for a table, so we need a simple algorithm. Here's a possible approach.

buy base STR 17

if possible buy adj DEX of 18/10

spend up to half remaining points on each of spell-stat and con, but only up to max base of 16 unless a pure class [mage or priest or warrior]

If there are any points left, spend as much as possible in order on DEX, non-spell-stat, CHR.

Thanks that's very handy, I think I'll use that. It does make me think though that if you do that everytime you could be in danger of ending up with similar characters when you play.

I like the idea of having racial level bonuses as well as class bonuses and having every class able to use both branches of magic, but with appropriate bonuses/penalties depending on the class. This way you could make some new interesting choices at the start of the game, such as having a gnome warrior which could become a decent spellcaster later on.

[Bandobras]

and exactly what the real difference in game is between say a strength of 18/20 and one of 18/30 for a half-troll warrior.

Haven't you read the official V spoilers? It's all in there, you don't even have to code-dive. And that part of the spoilers do not spoil the fun, at least for me.

[PowerDiver]

[QUOTE=PaulBlay;17572]One simple approach would be to have "standard" point distributions for every race/class combination and allow re-distribution from that start point.QUOTE]

There are too many combos for a table, so we need a simple algorithm. Here's a possible approach.

buy base STR 17

if possible buy adj DEX of 18/10

spend up to half remaining points on each of spell-stat and con, but only up to max base of 16 unless a pure class [mage or priest or warrior]

If there are any points left, spend as much as possible in order on DEX, non-spell-stat, CHR.

[PaulBlay]

One simple approach would be to have "standard" point distributions for every race/class combination and allow re-distribution from that start point.

There would be no game-play impact because it just starts off as if you'd spent the points in one way, nothing to stop you 'unspending' them and using your points elsewhere.