Stop the borg!

[tangar]

https://github.com/angband/angband/releases/tag/4.2.5

"return of the borg automatic player"

IMHO it's a really bad decision. so modern V now officially will make bots rlly ez setupable for our multiplayer variants (Tangaria, Mangband etc)

to protect multiplayer from borg we will have either to break compatibility with V or add a lot of capcha's and other stupid stuff...

PLEASE STOP THE BORG, THE BUTCHER OF MULTIPLAYER VARIANTS!

p.s.

The future has not been written. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves. John Connor

[tangar]

I understand that a lot of ppl hyped to @#$% AI and chatGPT. HYYYYPE! W000t!

But it's really not fun when in _competitive_ multiplayer game (or even at https://angband.live/ ) will appear CHEATERS who will stay in top ladder cause they used @#$% bots.

we dig the grave to multiplayer variants and *band competition right now. the only legit space for competitive *band gameplay will be real-life events where judges will have to watch ppl to play legit. But! we do not have resources and enough ppl to organize such events. Multiplayer roguelike gaming will stay online. And it will be not legit when bots will become accessible to common folk..... and Borg make this AWFUL catastrophe closer.

STOP THE BORG!

[Cryomaniac]

I don't see any problems with that. Using the borg requires a *band executable compiled with the borg option turned on; if you're maintaining a server-hosted version of Angband, you always can compile with the borg turned off. The competitions already can be cheated through save scumming - as far as I know, there's no way to detect it in an uploaded character dump.

[Pete Mack]

There is no chance of the borg winning a comp. It plays a really lousy game.

[Nick]

Don't worry Tangar, the borg won't wreck Angband any more than a predictive text model will turn into Skynet.

[agoodman]

There is no chance of the borg winning a comp. It plays a really lousy game.

I was gonna say, borg is a auto-player... not a GOOD auto-player.
The borg will require a lot of recoding for a game set up to allow multi-player so I would encourage whoever sets up multiplayer Angband type games just don't teach the borg how to play your variant.
Also the basic compile that allows the borg doesn't allow the borg to record scores. There is a compile option to allow it which I sometimes set but mostly because I primarily play with the borg.

[Sky]

.. i'm sorry but .. what?

So, you have a multiplayer angband variant. Ok.

Because it's MP, i must assume this runs on YOUR server? that people log on to?

And you are worried that people ... mysterious 1980s coders from an evil dimension, will reverse-engineer the borg code, turn it into something that can play on YOUR SERVER, and have many borgs running into your MP server - for the same profit as the underpants gnomes.

The borg is designed to run on the angband folder it's in. I don't think in any way it can latch onto the "folder" on your server.
Have you ever see what bots look like, in games like World of Warcraft, where there are teams of a dozen coders backed by a massive, million-dollars market for bots & hax?
If you haven't, let me summarize it with 1 word: TEH SUX.

Bots have no concept of the world around them. They cannot see where mobs are or walls or treasure. The key word here is SEE. If the bot can pull this info from static info from the game, then it can make decisions, but it's extremely easy to stop a bot doing this.

Nobody anywhere has any interest in coding a hack to pull info from your Tangaria server so they can run borgs FOR SC1ENCE.

[wobbly]

Stop the borg! Quest (Level 22):
Nick the butcher has gone too far! He has turned a small army of borgs against all men. Please destroy them before their influence can spread
any further, you will be well rewarded for completing this quest. The
quest is in a clearing east of the town.

[mrfy]

Stop the borg! Quest (Level 22):
Nick the butcher has gone too far! He has turned a small army of borgs against all men. Please destroy them before their influence can spread
any further, you will be well rewarded for completing this quest. The
quest is in a clearing east of the town.

West of House
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.
There is a small mailbox here.

>

[tangar]

The problem is that you, folks, added Borg (resurrected it) and provide it kinda "official" support. It will become better and better and finally will RIP all the competition out of all multiplayer *bands (including angband live). Time will come... you just made the Dark Lord time closer to come (very).

STOP THE BORG!

[tangar]

Imagine if Blizzard will add OFFICIAL bots to WoW, Diablo and other games. It will just @#$%in kill all these games. Right now a lot of resources of all *RPG developers are forwarded _to fight_ with bots! Adding them official supports it is the very stupid thing to do.

It feels like you treat Angband like something not serious, something like a joke. While it one of the most advanced roguelikes with huge perspectives. Instead of making the game botproof, you @#$% kill it's future.

There are loads of stuff possible to improve - like monsters AI. Why not to channel your efforts in this place. Wanna go into AI - make mobs smarter and game situations (even) more diverse...

You go to the wrong path.

[Cryomaniac]

How does it affect multiplayer variants and .live? If a server-side Angband build is compiled without the borg features, the borg can't be used there. It's not like a WoW bot at all - it's a part of the *band program, if you compile without enabling it, it doesn't exist.

Also, other roguelikes have their own experiments with bot players as well - I can recall original Rogue and Nethack having similar bots that have cleared the game. Angband's borg just happened to end up being more comparatively popular.

The bots can't compete that well with top human players at this point - I don't recall Nethack bot doing ascension streaks comparable to high level human players, Angband borg takes a lot of in-game time compared to human players. Unlike the real-time WoW, having computer level reactions is not relevant for turn-based roguelike, so a bot's skill level is limited to how well the programmer will be able to implement the 'ideal' play algorithm.

[PowerWyrm]

Fun fact: some years ago, I was using the Angband borg as my screensaver at work. Few weeks later, I was told by my boss that other coworkers complained about it because I was giving the impression of slacking at work. I was so pissed that I put back the regular Windows screensaver with a message saying something like "if you have time to waste looking at this and complaining then you should probably go back to your own work and mind your own business..." (basically telling to f**k off in a more polite manner)

[Patashu]

I don't see why anyone would be incentivized to make a Borg for multiplayer variants, anyway. You bot Runescape because you can make real world money off of grinding and selling items. No one is making money off of ToMENet. And if someone does start botting your game and you don't like it, ban them. The community isn't big enough that botting could go unnoticed. Also, I think bots for single player games are cool. You can just not use them if you don't like it and then it doesn't effect you.

[tangar]

My final thought:
developing a bot for your own game is like being ill and starting to dig your own grave in preparation to lie in it, instead of fighting the disease.

As Andband.live (and other multiplayer variats) has big potential to become a real competitive platform (with champinoship and interesting internation events) - developing automatization focused on beating this particular game by its own devs is very silly.

p.s.
I speak as a person responsible on developing several dozens macroes/bots for MMORPGs starting from 1999 (for my own use; never sold or distributed them). I know what I'm talking about. Adapting "singleplayer" Borg for a multiplayer/competitive experience is ezpz if there is a good model available already. One "bad" person might think twice before investing time into making a powerful bot. However, when the whole community has already invested hundreds of hours into the model, some people will surely be tempted to join the dark side. Folks, let's not dig our own grave.