Several questions about Blackguards

[PowerDiver]

And they need to learn about monsters.

...

Again, it works for some but not all playstyles.

You don't learn about monsters unless you encounter them. That's yet another reason for diving. In any case, what makes you think their playstyle is working for them? The question is how much they have learned about the game, say in the last 10 hours of playing, compared to how much they would have learned using a different style.

I'd guess the reason for the near death was a combination of lack of knowledge with getting double [or triple] moved by the foe because of being slowed due to weight. More than once, I have suddenly been in trouble because I didn't notice autopickup had slowed me. It might have been more instructive to die from that encounter. Some lessons only get through when you learn them the hard way.

[Talharim]

Got one such lesson from facing a great draconic

> You tear the greater draconic quylthulg (45).
> You miss the greater draconic quylthulg.
> You bite the greater draconic quylthulg (45).
> The ancient multi-hued dragon conjures up weird things.
> You retain your presence of mind.
> You resist the effect!
> You bite the ancient multi-hued dragon (53).
> You bite the ancient multi-hued dragon (51).
> You slash the ancient multi-hued dragon (53).
> You miss the ancient multi-hued dragon.
> You bite the ancient multi-hued dragon (79). It was a good hit!
> You bite the ancient multi-hued dragon (49).
> You bite the ancient multi-hued dragon (51).
> The ancient multi-hued dragon breathes poison.
> You die.

When I realized I was hitting the greater draconic quylthulg several turns and it didn't die I should have used my rod of probing. When an ancient multi-hued dragon was summoned, I should have drank a resist poison potion. I should have TOd both mobs.

Funny note about this char: a vorted destroyed his scrolls of recall. So he had to dive.

[Sky]

I should have used my rod of probing.
I should have drank a resist poison potion.
I should have TOd both mobs.

nope.



Qs and S are two great sources of XP and neither can move. What you SHOULD have done is position yourself so that they cannot cast (e.g summon) and nuke them with arrows or spells.
Also, !rPois .. again no. Unless you are a really squishy low level character and you want to get past a basilisk, you can squelch these. What you SHOULD have done is not fight two mobs are the same time e.g Phase when the dragon got summoned.

[mrfy]

You don't learn about monsters unless you encounter them. That's yet another reason for diving.

Agree with your first sentence but not the second. I run into plenty of monsters without diving.

In any case, what makes you think their playstyle is working for them? The question is how much they have learned about the game, say in the last 10 hours of playing, compared to how much they would have learned using a different style.

Perhaps it is not the best and my way might not be the best. But I don't enjoy diving and don't play that way. Nor is it probably right for everyone. So I don't think we should always encourage diving since it is not for everyone.

I'd guess the reason for the near death was a combination of lack of knowledge with getting double [or triple] moved by the foe because of being slowed due to weight. More than once, I have suddenly been in trouble because I didn't notice autopickup had slowed me. It might have been more instructive to die from that encounter. Some lessons only get through when you learn them the hard way.

Agree with this, and is the reason i have autopickup turned off.

[mrfy]

Qs and S are two great sources of XP and neither can move. What you SHOULD have done is position yourself so that they cannot cast (e.g summon) and nuke them with arrows or spells.

Agree.

Also, !rPois .. again no. Unless you are a really squishy low level character and you want to get past a basilisk, you can squelch these. What you SHOULD have done is not fight two mobs are the same time e.g Phase when the dragon got summoned.

I always carry potions of resist poison even after I have rPois from a ring or other item. I've had plenty of deaths from getting poisoned.

Also, it sounds like Word of Recall was OP's only way out. I always carry several escapes, like Phase Door scrolls or Teleportation staves.

[Talharim]

I did have phase door and TO. Just no recall (it was burned) and no !rPois. Didn’t find any after being told I should have them. Like finding no scrolls of WoR after getting mine burned in 5 levels or so.
But the problem here was:

1. Not realizing the big threat of this particular Q
2. Not realizing the enormous threat of the ancient dragon
3. Not having any !rPois and not popping one the minute the dragon appeared

One question, was the fact that the AMHD breathing poison on his first time a bad case of Russian roulette? Or did it check my resists and chosen the element I didn’t resist?

[Estie]

It used to be completely random; I believe the default on the newest versions is that monsters "learn from their mistake", so if it had, say, breathed fire and you had been immune to fire, it probably wouldnt breath fire at you any longer.

Anyway, the first breath should be random in any case. You were very unlucky.

[Talharim]

Since there's no rest for the wicked, and only a Necromancer could be more wicked than a Blackguard, I started a new char.

I have two rings of protection +10 and a ring of open wounds. At the moment, healing 40 hps is a lot. Plus cure confusion and blindness is pretty nice. Should I wear both RoP or just one RoP and one RoOW?
I have 52 AC atm and 196 HPs.

[mrfy]

Since there's no rest for the wicked, and only a Necromancer could be more wicked than a Blackguard, I started a new char.

I have two rings of protection +10 and a ring of open wounds. At the moment, healing 40 hps is a lot. Plus cure confusion and blindness is pretty nice. Should I wear both RoP or just one RoP and one RoOW?
I have 52 AC atm and 196 HPs.

I'm not a fan of rings of protection unless they do something else, like rings of fire/cold/lightning/acid. Adding 10 to armor class won't help you that much. I'd do one and one. And once something better comes along, ditch both when you can.

[ewert]

I feel people much underestimate the effect of armor at the low levels. Just wearing okay pieces on every slot and a fair body armor, and two rings of prot makes you really tough against low level melee mobs, allowing you to melee stuff early on even with crappy dmg/round.

Heck, I currently am doing half-orc/paladin starts, and sometimes if there is no good weapon at all I actually just start off with armor and fists. XD

[Estie]

I think people really overestimate the value of taking low damage in melee.

Make sure you you dont get slowed down by superfluous armor pieces, read ?phase to get out of trouble and heal up and youll be fine.

I have been in the habit of squelching all "good" armor pieces as found for about a decade. I have yet to regret the decision to adopt this radical way of playing.

[ewert]

There is nothing radical about that, that is the old accepted way, lol.

There seemed to be a change in armor usefulness at one point, you are talking based on old gaming style, nothing wrong with that, but that style doesn't make armor useless.

The difference is there for melee characters. You won't be killing the tough mobs soon or without massive resource use if you can only hit them once before you need to flee to heal ...

[Estie]

Well I have seen many people playing by now, on the live site, in videos or on live streams. I have yet to see anyone not equipping armor pieces without magical properties, so I figured my way must be radical.

Now which tough mobs are you talking about ? It must be before I have found some armor of resistance; so something like Azog maybe ? Armor or no, I am going to use whatever ranged options I have on him, so worst case is me using a couple more phase passes instead of finishing him off in melee.

There is no such thing as a pure melee character; there is only ranged characters, some with a melee option some without.

With "change in armor style", do you mean the increase in base AC for all the different types ? I liked that change, hoping it would make armor class more valuable like in, for example, nethack, where you cant survive without a good amount of it. However, I have come to realize that it would not be enough to increase the effect of armor class, even if you increase the monster melee damage at the same time. You would also have to up the cost of disengaging.

Another game where a very similar thing happened is Diablo. In the original version, Diablo I, AC is vital and you'll equip non-magical body armor with more AC over low AC one with mods. This changed in Diablo II and while many players still pursue a high AC value, it is imo only a matter of prestige, not necessity.

You can win D1 without AC, but it is a challenge. In D2, you will be fine if you completely ignore AC. It is the same with nethack and angband.

[ewert]

Well at least from my perspective, the avoid-head-to-head style was always the norm back in the day, nothing radical in my view about it.

My most recent example of the high armour utility was vs Lokkak, usually against Lokkak even a single round in melee tends to mean needing to run to heal. This time I actually had a 50+ AC body armor, and I was a bit surprised I could actually melee a couple rounds. My character wasn't really strong enough otherwise to be at those levels, I left the level as I realized I just couldn't bring him down with the consumables I had even if I phased and my sling of power 20 with +5 ammo, ran out of slow monster charges. XD

This style works nicely with the chars I am currently playing, which are melee heavy str/dex emphasis on char creation. I can carry the heavy stuff, and unless I luck out big time I am doing more dmg in melee than with ranged, so being able to just kill for example as you mentioned Azog comfortably in melee is very nice on consumable usage.

Btw, the best results come from using a wand of stunning and high armor. Anything sub dlvl40 that is a melee enemy tends to be a breeze combining those two. Add slow if they are a real big mean nasty.

[Sky]

omg i am playing a blackguard right now because i thought i would rub it in yo' face on how easy they are to win with, but JESUS. it's like someone thought "hey wouldn't it be hilarious if we took a warrior but made him garbage at fighting and gave him nothing in exchange".
CL30 and i do 30 damage .. YES not 300, but THIRTY.