Angband 4.2.4

[Nick]

So I've been playing a half-troll warrior recently to keep myself distracted, and thinking about the issue with light weapons giving more blows and thus being more damaging than heavy weapons.

This is probably a dumb question, but would it be possible to change the way damage and blows are calculated such that DEX contributes more to light weapons, and STR contributes more to heavy ones? Or does it already work that way and I'm just clueless?

(I haven't looked at the code because I probably wouldn't understand it; I don't math good and my rudimentary coding skills are decades out of date.)

If it helps (and it may not), blows are basically just decided from a big table:

	/* 0  */
	{  100, 100, 95,  85,  75,  60,  50,  42,  35,  30,  25,  23 },

	/* 1  */
	{  100, 95,  85,  75,  60,  50,  42,  35,  30,  25,  23,  21 },

	/* 2  */
	{  95,  85,  75,  60,  50,  42,  35,  30,  26,  23,  21,  20 },

	/* 3  */
	{  85,  75,  60,  50,  42,  36,  32,  28,  25,  22,  20,  19 },

	/* 4  */
	{  75,  60,  50,  42,  36,  33,  28,  25,  23,  21,  19,  18 },

	/* 5  */
	{  60,  50,  42,  36,  33,  30,  27,  24,  22,  21,  19,  17 },

	/* 6  */
	{  50,  42,  36,  33,  30,  27,  25,  23,  21,  20,  18,  17 },

	/* 7  */
	{  42,  36,  33,  30,  28,  26,  24,  22,  20,  19,  18,  17 },

	/* 8  */
	{  36,  33,  30,  28,  26,  24,  22,  21,  20,  19,  17,  16 },

	/* 9  */
	{  35,  32,  29,  26,  24,  22,  21,  20,  19,  18,  17,  16 },

	/* 10 */
	{  34,  30,  27,  25,  23,  22,  21,  20,  19,  18,  17,  16 },

	/* 11+ */
	{  33,  29,  26,  24,  22,  21,  20,  19,  18,  17,  16,  15 },

DEX increases going across the table and strength increases going down, and the values in the table are the amount of energy the player uses per blow. So top left is low STR, low DEX and a blow is 100 energy (a whole turn). Bottom right is high STR, high DEX and a blow is 15 energy, so you get 100/15 = about 6 blows. And, for another example, the bottom right is high STR and low DEX, and that would give you 100/33 = 3 blows.

[gglibertine]

Long ago I made a proposal to let #blows be determined by dex alone and have str put a cap on that number dependent on weapon weight. You could adjust the numbers such that the damage output would be similar to the status quo; the difference would be that the level 1 half troll would achieve his best result with something like a longsword (~2 blows) as opposed to a dagger (same ~2 blows) or a lance (~1 blow). As the dex goes up, so does the #blows, as the str goes up, so does the weight allowance so eventually he gets the same #blows with the lance.

At the same time the level 1 halfling warrior would get ~3 blows with the dagger and only ~1 with anything heavier, while other classes use the same cap for str but get a lower base #blows from their dex stat (eventually capping out at the current max values of 6, 5 or 4).

I like the sound of that! I think it makes a lot of sense.

[mrfy]

Latest nightly 4.2.4-234-g18ed034cd. Trying to use the mage spell Dimension Door, instead of allowing me to pick a square to phase to, it offers "Direction ('*' or <click> to target, "'" for closest, Escape to cancel)?"

This seems to be the prompt to select a target monster, not a target square.

[PowerDiver]

Long ago I made a proposal to let #blows be determined by dex alone and have str put a cap on that number dependent on weapon weight..

I proposed something equivalent even longer ago, worded differently but the same effect. This was one of many things I implemented in 3.a.0 that was only ever used in one competetition. FWIW the formulae involved the square root of some linear function of the weapon weight. I did a lot playtesting to get the values right for my intuition. If the dev team wants to test this, that old code might be a good place to start.

This idea got no traction when I tried to push it. Perhaps you will have better luck.

[Nick]

Combat System

Some of you may remember that when I started out as maintainer I gave an outline of my plans for 4.1-4.3. The eagle-eyed will also notice that combat system was one of the things slated for examination in 4.3.

A couple of things I should say:

1. I'm kind of occupied on other things at the moment and
2. I don't have really strong opinions about how the combat system should work.

I think the current system works pretty well; there's the birth option for percentage damage (essentially O-combat); and there are other options like what was proposed for v4.

So I'm not going to be pushing a particular idea, but I would very much welcome a discussion about this, with the view that it could potentially lead to a revised combat system (and by implication a version 4.3).

[Bill Peterson]

So I'm not going to be pushing a particular idea, but I would very much welcome a discussion about this, with the view that it could potentially lead to a revised combat system (and by implication a version 4.3).

Any thoughts about making Vanilla combat more Sil-like? That would leverage some of the new knowledge you're picking up. Or are the systems incompatible.

[Nick]

Any thoughts about making Vanilla combat more Sil-like? That would leverage some of the new knowledge you're picking up. Or are the systems incompatible.

It would be a very big change. Sil combat is very finely balanced, and all the weapons (and to an extent armour) are carefully designed to fit a usable niche. Angband tends to have a much more relaxed (being kind here) approach to balance in objects.

That said, it's not an area I devote a lot of time to analysing.

[smbhax]

I think the current system works pretty well; there's the birth option for percentage damage (essentially O-combat); and there are other options like what was proposed for v4.

So I'm not going to be pushing a particular idea, but I would very much welcome a discussion about this, with the view that it could potentially lead to a revised combat system (and by implication a version 4.3).

The only problem I've had with combat so far is that up through level 30 or something the most damaging weapon I could find for my Warrior was an ordinary dagger (maybe a stiletto or something), because of the speed factor. It made the wide variety of heavier weapons I kept finding obsolete, so there was essentially no worthwhile weapon variety for ages. That was weird and boring.

Would birth_percent_damage change that?

[Nick]

Would birth_percent_damage change that?

It certainly should.

[smbhax]

It certainly should.

Aw, cool! I'll have to remember to try that next time. ^ _^

[fph]

I suggest having the next competition with birth_percent_damage , so that more people can try it and see if it is a useful starting point for discussion.

[Monkey Face]

Ideal combat system:

I attack a monster.

Monster dies.

I move on to the next monster.

[tom]

The only combat systems I'm aware of that are kindof balanced with existing item stats are the standard system, and oangband system.

I think there is a bit to do still to balance oangband combat in V. In particular, archery with basic (1d4) ammo and no slays is considerably weaker (when using a good bow). Altering those to 2d4, 2d5 etc helps a bit. Overall it will still probably mean archery is less powerful than before, except with 4d4 ammo and a slay. Here's some damage stats I collected:

Damage with lvl1 paladin, x3 bow, all +0,+0:
Arrow dice classic damage => oangband damage
1d4 7.5 => 9.5
2d4 15 => 17.6 (there is no 2d4)
3d4 22.5 => 25.9
4d4 30 => 34.1

Damage with maxed char, paladin slays (demon, evil, none), bow of bard x5:
Arrow dice classic damage => oangband damage (demon, evil, none)
1d4 220,160,110 => 152,77,42
2d4 250,175,125 => 249,128,70 (there is no 2d4)
3d4 275,192,137 => 346,177,98
4d4 333,233,166 => 457,235,130

So making basic ammo 2d4 makes archery a bit stronger in the very early game, but as soon as you have a +20 bow of power the damage will still lag behind V combat.

Maybe some Sil weapon flavours can be added to vanilla angband - axes hitting multiple targets, polearms giving that extra reach, etc. This + making oangband combat the default would IMO be a big improvement, without requiring an extensive tweaking of all item values.

People have complained that oang combat makes damage calculations as opaque as to-hit calculations already are. Perhaps some UI changes to show final damage dice will help with this? Sil does a great job of this, though its calculations are more straightforward than oang combat.

[PowerDiver]

The problem with V combat is that a big strong clumsy oaf gets too many blows with a dagger and too few blows with a maul. The biggest improvement from O, assuming my memory from 15 years ago is correct, is that most chars start with 2 blows with a moderately heavy weapon. Forget about the percentage stuff and just start with a minimum of 2 blows and that's already an 80% fix. If it bothers you that a mage gets 2 blows with a heavy weapon, make the minimum blows be class depenendent or use the blows code I mentioned before.

[Estie]

V combat emerged because the original unrealistic feature (from D&D mechanic) was that there was never a reason to use a dagger (1d4) over a sword (2d5). I dont know exactly what O combat does, but if it reverts to the above situation, I dont want it.

Balancing weapon types by making the lighter, low damage ones faster is a great idea; but to be (somewhat) realistic a model the speed advantage should come from high dexterity.

So in the next step (which I believe must have existed though I dont see any trace of it in any version of Angband I know) the dagger wielding high dexterity fighter was the most damaging which is also unrealistic; while Bruce Lees exist, combat sports all over the world have weight categories, implying that mass (and hence, strength over speed) matters.

Each of these steps is, imo, an improvement. Take the next step: make sure that strong @s always want a heavier weapon than weak @s. It is possible to do so without breaking anything.