Necromancer: every spellbook reviewed and rated

[Estie]

I want to add a remark here, after the fait accompli of the dark necromancer and not expecting it to cause any changes.

My issue with darkness has always been that it never models the features to resemble the actual reason for you as the actor to like it: that is that the enemy is disoriented and hindered by it, but you are _not_ (or at the very least, less than the enemy). Whether thats because your eyes are attuned or you have infravision or something else doesnt matter.

In most games its the opposite - the player gets diminished information but the (ai controlled) enemies do not. ToME4, for example, simply gives the rogue some kind of damage boost when fighting in darkness. The monsters dont care at all if its dark or not. To me, that doesnt feel right.

So I was curious (but not hopeful) about how Nick would approach the topic.
The necromancer is supposed to like the dark. Why ? Well, apparently because nothing works for him when its light. Ok.

My pessimism did not stem from thinking Nick cant have good ideas - I dont think that - but from assuming that changing the ai behaviour to take light into account is a tall order. And of course, all the dungeon denizens are supposed to be super adept at orientation in darkness. Which brings us back to the initial question: why exactly did the Necromancer of Dol Guldur like the darkness ?

[Pete Mack]

@Estie--
Because it is thematically on point? I mean, ask a silly question...

BTW: you made a comment about randarts in a recent ladder entry of mine. I actually disagree: I had a crazy stat stick in the otherwise nearly useless bow slot for a Blackguard. That opens up a ton of options, like using a damage ring that'd be tricky to use with standarts without dropping CON/DEX/STR. Also, until very late in the game I was using a +2CON, +5 STL(!) amulet. I gave it up for the last few levels. I also found a +6 STL cloak, but I kept the +4 STL Elven cloak of the Magi with trap immunity instead--and posted it to the memorable ego items thread.

[Estie]

OK. Why does the assassin like the dark ? Because its thematic, duh.
Above I gave a reason why an assassin might like the dark, which might be the reason it has become thematic. Is there some real reason for the necromancer as well, or are we stuck with just "meh, theme" ?

@randarts:
What do you disagree with ?

Edit: I realized that your ladder entry was not a good place to write, but I couldnt think of a good way to move the thread someplace better, like a necormancer spell thread

[wobbly]

@randarts:
What do you disagree with ?

Edit: I realized that your ladder entry was not a good place to write, but I couldnt think of a good way to move the thread someplace better, like a necormancer spell thread

There's a thread for the character in AAR over here:

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=10774&page=2

if you don't want to put it in the necromancer spell thread.

[Selkie]

Latest nightly version on the releases page has the changes I suggested below.

I didn't go with the Darken Item idea. It does have some appeal, but it feels to me like the light in things like the Phial is pretty fundamental, so removing it would probably just turn it into a piece of useless glass. So reduced utility of the light slot is just cost of doing business for a necromancer.

Thanks Nick, can't wait to try out the latest iteration of the necromancer

[Nick]

I want to add a remark here, after the fait accompli of the dark necromancer and not expecting it to cause any changes.

My issue with darkness has always been that it never models the features to resemble the actual reason for you as the actor to like it: that is that the enemy is disoriented and hindered by it, but you are _not_ (or at the very least, less than the enemy). Whether thats because your eyes are attuned or you have infravision or something else doesnt matter.

In most games its the opposite - the player gets diminished information but the (ai controlled) enemies do not. ToME4, for example, simply gives the rogue some kind of damage boost when fighting in darkness. The monsters dont care at all if its dark or not. To me, that doesnt feel right.

So I was curious (but not hopeful) about how Nick would approach the topic.
The necromancer is supposed to like the dark. Why ? Well, apparently because nothing works for him when its light. Ok.

My pessimism did not stem from thinking Nick cant have good ideas - I dont think that - but from assuming that changing the ai behaviour to take light into account is a tall order. And of course, all the dungeon denizens are supposed to be super adept at orientation in darkness. Which brings us back to the initial question: why exactly did the Necromancer of Dol Guldur like the darkness ?

This is a truly excellent point.

First, you're right, upending all the monster behaviour for the sake of one class wasn't really possible. And it probably does highlight that that behaviour is not all that believable, but again I'm not going to suddenly change it all completely.

As to why the Necromancer liked the darkness, I feel like it went beyond "it confuses my enemies but not me". I think it's actually the state he felt comfortable in, the state that matched his nature. So maybe rather than nothing works in the light, it's more like light hurts. Which actually makes me think maybe the implementation does fit fairly well.

[Cuboideb]

I really (really) like the new crush spell, but I think it should be tweaked a bit:
1. Now it hurts non-visible monsters too (invisible or outside infravision range). This should be limited I think.
2. Perhaps it should hurt the player too (for a fraction of the damage done to monsters)

[Voovus]

I think it's actually the state he felt comfortable in, the state that matched his nature. So maybe rather than nothing works in the light, it's more like light hurts.

Your typical, non-Dol Guldur, garden variety type of necromancer also typically has a bunch of undead minions running around. They are vulnerable to light. This is not really reflected in the current class.

[Selkie]

2. Perhaps it should hurt the player too (for a fraction of the damage done to monsters)

Why does everything have to hurt necromancers?

[Cuboideb]

Why does everything have to hurt necromancers?

To have some kind of trade-off. The spell does 80 damage to every monster in the room at clvl 20. You can hurt a monster until it has less than 80 hp and finish it with crush. In bands, necros have powerful spells that hurt them in some way.

[ewert]

Crush is craaaazy good, just a quick note. Might be even too early. I literally just farmed 4 levels after getting it by fruit fly spawns in a room, go bit back to regen some mana, come back and boom, about 60-80xp per shot. XD

[Selkie]

So nether bolt now freezes enemies to the spot? I'll take it

[Nick]

So nether bolt now freezes enemies to the spot? I'll take it

This is a fairly new thing where when a monster is frightened and has nowhere to run, the fear gets turned into being held. I'm still not quite sure if I like it.

[Selkie]

This is a fairly new thing where when a monster is frightened and has nowhere to run, the fear gets turned into being held. I'm still not quite sure if I like it.

Ah ok. Yeah it happened to farmer maggot when I had him backed into a corner. I think a frightened monster should get a 50/50 chance of barging past the player to safety

[Pete Mack]

The usual case is in a hallway, which may give the player a chance to heal or escape a horde.