Sil 1.2

[half]

Still synthesizing new version... but, wanted to say that I think 'charge' would make a great pre-requisite for leaping. I love leaping... it's great... but I'm finding it rather expensive for the route I usually take on the evasion tree. I know this is a my-problem kind of thing, but charge does involve running toward a target, the same thing leaping requires. I can see how dodge translates to nimble, but charge is a good candidate too imo.

Interesting idea. We are not certain of what the pre-requisite(s) of Leaping really should be. If it is found to be too weak, for instance, then it probably shouldn't have any pre-requisites at all. I don't think there are any cases where we just have an off-skill pre-requisite for an ability, but we should consider adding Charge as an alternate. We also considered Sprinting for obvious reasons, but decided that would make Leaping too deep in the tree and Sprinting needs a pre-requisite because it is just so damn good.

[locus]

Small interface thing:

As archer I often have to drop arrows, I would like to be able to do it like in Angband where I can drop the whole stack with * instead of reading and typing the exact number. It is very very minor, obviously. I just noticed because I did play some Angband these days.

You can overshoot without any problems, it won't complain that you don't have enough to drop. I usually just hit "9" a few times if I want to drop a whole stack without looking at the number. That said, it would be nice to have an easier and less ridiculous way to do it.

[taptap]

Small interface thing:

As archer I often have to drop arrows, I would like to be able to do it like in Angband where I can drop the whole stack with * instead of reading and typing the exact number. It is very very minor, obviously. I just noticed because I did play some Angband these days.

[debo]

Uh, this is a really silly thing, but in the @ screen, I guess "armor" was changed to British spelling "armour" but the column label field is too narrow and so it reads "Armou" now Looks like this will happen when the defense summary is 10 chars or wider, which is pretty commonplace (e.g. [+10,5-15])

[MarvinPA]

As I don't use the GCU version and don't quite understand why each of the fixes was made and what it does, I haven't incorporated them. If MarvinPA were to send me a nice short explanation and a list of the patches to apply, I might be able to do that. I'd be interested even to know the very basics about how people use the GCU version. e.g. does everyone redefine colours on their terminal? or do they use the defaults? etc. I wouldn't want to accidentally wreck things for people who use it in a different way. I might also be able to try it out on the terminal in OS X to check it out.

I think most of the colour changes I made wouldn't really be suitable for merging, since I just focused on changing things for GCU without worrying about the impact on other versions. However a while ago clouded got 256 colour mode working in GCU so some time soon I'm going to merge his patch - it fixes all the grey vs lightgrey and brown vs lightbrown issues that GCU has I think, without needing many colours to be changed from the default.

Haven't gotten around to playing much yet but the changelog looks really good.

[HallucinationMushroom]

Still synthesizing new version... but, wanted to say that I think 'charge' would make a great pre-requisite for leaping. I love leaping... it's great... but I'm finding it rather expensive for the route I usually take on the evasion tree. I know this is a my-problem kind of thing, but charge does involve running toward a target, the same thing leaping requires. I can see how dodge translates to nimble, but charge is a good candidate too imo.

[decoy]

Here's the rationale behind the move on Woven Themes.

To some extent Songs are wanted for special occasions, and to some extent they provide a general boost. Aule is poster-child for special use, but Freedom, Elbereth and Trees are all somewhat in this category.

To the extent that they different uses, multiple songs are quite synergistic, since they all go well with high Song values. If you've invested a lot for your Song of the Trees, you're much more likely to pick up another song to use when you don't want the light.

To the extent that they are generic boosts, it doesn't matter which you have going, so they are anti-synergistic because you can only run one at once. Many of the combat songs fall into this category.

Woven themes allowed players with high Song to get almost full use out of two songs simultaneously. This meant that it was essentially a no-brainer for song specialists, which in turn discouraged players from taking too many individual songs. After halving you can still gets one-and-a-half uses out of your Song, which could easily be worth buying the ability. And the nerf is not so big for Song dabblers.

Interesting explanation, thanks! It will be intriguing to see how the dynamics of decreased experience in general (cf. no double points for artifacts/uniques) and decreased cost for songs (cf. fewer things to spend points on, so reduced overall cost) work out for song specialists.

Indeed, without Unwavering Voice, Grace becomes that much more crucial, especially if one does opt for Woven Themes.

[Scatha]

Here's the rationale behind the move on Woven Themes.

To some extent Songs are wanted for special occasions, and to some extent they provide a general boost. Aule is poster-child for special use, but Freedom, Elbereth and Trees are all somewhat in this category.

To the extent that they different uses, multiple songs are quite synergistic, since they all go well with high Song values. If you've invested a lot for your Song of the Trees, you're much more likely to pick up another song to use when you don't want the light.

To the extent that they are generic boosts, it doesn't matter which you have going, so they are anti-synergistic because you can only run one at once. Many of the combat songs fall into this category.

Woven themes allowed players with high Song to get almost full use out of two songs simultaneously. This meant that it was essentially a no-brainer for song specialists, which in turn discouraged players from taking too many individual songs. After halving you can still gets one-and-a-half uses out of your Song, which could easily be worth buying the ability. And the nerf is not so big for Song dabblers.

[decoy]

Really depends on what stealth and song you are running at.

Well, of course it does, doesn't it? Everything works a treat with 27 Song and 20 Stealth.

[decoy]

I sing Lorien only when I find a high-perception beast that is awake. And when being chased.

Well yes, me too. But I found that being chased after the Vanish downtune often required both Lorien and Silence to get nasties to go Unwary. It may be different in 1.2, I wouldn't know—I haven't had nearly enough play time since release to form a definitive opinion on the subject.

Nor do I really even care—I'll happily play the game in whatever form.

[taptap]

I'm not sure I agree, because especially after the Vanish downtune the combination of Lorien/Silence was absolutely necessary at deeper levels.

That is simply not true. Really depends on what stealth and song you are running at. In particular I don't sing Silence in the endgame because it hurts my ears (Listen!) only if I am making real noise like bashing doors or digging I even consider it. Vanish did still work as it was (not as in its overpowered state but still quite good) and was buffed a lot in 1.2 (difficulties reduced by 5 throughout).

[T-Mick]

I'm not sure I agree, because especially after the Vanish downtune the combination of Lorien/Silence was absolutely necessary at deeper levels.

I hardly agree with you here. Silence is usually more than enough, and I sing Lorien only when I find a high-perception beast that is awake. And when being chased.

[decoy]

Chasms seem much too common at shallow depths.

[decoy]

Woven themes looks far less mandatory now than in the previous version, even as a singer.

I'm not sure I agree, because especially after the Vanish downtune the combination of Lorien/Silence was absolutely necessary at deeper levels.

[half]

The vault I'm thinking of had easterling archers on islands surrounded by moats, and another moat at the center which had Nargil; it's probably "Bracket Islands"? I think abilities buying you loot with no other way to reach it is bad design (if there are work-arounds I haven't found them yet; it did occur to me that _earthquakes might do something). Stealth and perception make your life easier, and you could do something similar with e.g. shortcuts you can leap over for less/no fighting. You could at least leave diggable walls as an alternative. I don't find one vault particularly offensive but I'd hate to see it become a trend.

That's interesting -- thanks for explaining. It seems like our ideas about game design differ here. I don't have a problem with Abilities or Skills (or items) allowing one to get more treasure, even if it is in a discontinuous way (e.g. Leaping vs no Leaping, as opposed to a continuous increase in Stealth). As you say, in most of the chasm vaults Leaping gives you a new and possibly easier way to do something (e.g. to leap across and kill the archers in hand-to-hand), and in some it allows you access to an area with both new risk and new reward. In a couple, it is pretty much just reward. I still don't mind this though -- it makes sense to me in terms of flavour, realism, and gameplay. Note that in Bracket Islands, there is definitely risk as well as reward -- as well as having to fight past the archers and fliers, there is no returning from the central island.

You're right, I tried other colours and they do show out of LOS; it's ugly but playable. I don't know how colours work at all but mpa-sil fixed many GCU problems, so I'll bug MarvinPA about it sometime.

As I don't use the GCU version and don't quite understand why each of the fixes was made and what it does, I haven't incorporated them. If MarvinPA were to send me a nice short explanation and a list of the patches to apply, I might be able to do that. I'd be interested even to know the very basics about how people use the GCU version. e.g. does everyone redefine colours on their terminal? or do they use the defaults? etc. I wouldn't want to accidentally wreck things for people who use it in a different way. I might also be able to try it out on the terminal in OS X to check it out.