I'm rubbish at the game, any tips?

[Infinitum]

The single most effective tactic I've found to boost my early survivability is closing doors to force intelligent melee enemies (mostly Orcs) to enter corridors single file. Normally, unless you're severely wounded they will hover just outside the mouth of any corridor to force a 3-vs-1 standoff (use this to regain health if needed), but if there's a door at the end of the corridor and you close it they will always move to open it if possible and sometimes enter the doorway as a result, at which point you can pick them off one by one at your own leisure. Mix this up by shooting arrows into whoever opened the door's face should they opt to keep the 1-tile distance for fun and profit.

In addition, Archers will never open doors knowing you're behind them which means that you can break los to regain hp as long as you don't stray too far into rooms (giving you time to plan out cornering them). Don't forget that you can also close doors in order to single out lone archers from the pack in order not to end up a pincushion whilst bludgeoning them to death. Seriously, Doors are imba.

This leaves being sandwitched inside of corridors as my main cause of death (along with midgame criticals..), which can be somewhat alleviated either by spending early points into stealth (meh) or always trying to arrange your fights (retreating past enemies if needed) so that you're positioned in a short corridor with your enemies on another side of a closed door ahead of you and a lit room (with multiple exits) at your back to secure your escape in case something wanders in. This should take you to 500' or so relatively often, at which point you'll die to new and exciting things such as not having resistances, shafts separating you from the stairs or being chased down by quick monsters that pack an actual punch.

Oh yeah, and last tip: your bow. Use it. There's a lot of enemies even deepish into the dungeon (eg Giants) that are easy enough to hit even with the 1-point archery investment (for the free careful shot) with Noldor, which incidentally makes your {special} stacks last longer. Don't forget to purchase sprint once G's and R's show up and marvel at how easy they are to kite inside a cleared part of the level.

[Patashu]

I also recall that 'door dancing' works in Sil, which is where you close the door, the enemy opens the door, and you repeat forever. It's like pillar dancing in place.

[taptap]

I also recall that 'door dancing' works in Sil, which is where you close the door, the enemy opens the door, and you repeat forever. It's like pillar dancing in place.

Not always, if memory serves correctly. I imagine sometimes one enemy opens the door and the next walks in.

[BlueFish]

Not always, if memory serves correctly. I imagine sometimes one enemy opens the door and the next walks in.

I believe any enemy capable of opening doors is also capable, on some decent random chance, of destroying them. Door dancing never lasts.

[debo]

I believe any enemy capable of opening doors is also capable, on some decent random chance, of destroying them. Door dancing never lasts.

Really?? I thought monsters could only do one of (a) be blocked by doors (b) open doors (c) break them down.

Edit: I was just corrected on this by MarvinPA:

"
open_door, bash_door and unlock_door are all separate flags, some things just have open/bash or open/unlock, a good number have all three though

in general it looks like orcs have open/bash/unlock, easterlings and trolls just have open/bash
"

[BlueFish]

I guess we'd have to go through the monster list for monsters that have open but not bash. I'm not sure how many there are.

[BlueFish]

Orc scouts, eastering spies, wights, wraiths, vampires. That's about it. Everything else that can open can also bash.

[TJS]

Still plugging away but not getting beyond 500ft.

Just killed by a Sulrauko who I couldn't see to hit most of the time. Not sure what I could have done really as the potion of true seeing didn't seem to help see him. He just kept hitting me until I died.

Been getting killed by a lot of things that often aren't that dangerous, but just get a few lucky rolls in a row against me. I tend to increase melee and evasion a lot, but even with reasonable gear (shield, boots, armour without much evasion penalty) I often just get ground down by monsters. Running away often means eventually just fighting two monsters instead of just one in a corridor. I tend to not put any into stealth so maybe I should try that instead.

I'm not really sure how to use the consumables when in trouble (apart from orcish liquor and slow poison). Are there any hints with early points/staffs/herbs to help in battle? Do staffs of light blind monsters or help you see invisible or anything? I rarely see trumpets.

Is it wise to hang around earlier levels for a while to get see invisible etc. before going to certain depths? I tend to try and do each level just once rather than scumming for better gear.

Also what % of times can the top players win the game? Is it rare or quite regular when you know how?

Btw I had a sword of Gondolin for ages, but despite killing loads of orcs and trolls it wouldn't identify. What do I need to do to get it to ID?

[TJS]

Did a bit better and got to 550' and killed by a Shadow Spider, here's the dump.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=15135

I seem to be getting to the killed by an invisible monster that comes out of nowhere stage at the moment.

[debo]

Just killed by a Sulrauko who I couldn't see to hit most of the time. Not sure what I could have done really as the potion of true seeing didn't seem to help see him. He just kept hitting me until I died.

You can hit it when it's invisible, but since they're erratic it can be good to dance around until they appear before taking a swing.

Watch your messages when fighting these. (Combat rolls are better.) A lot of times you are actually hitting it for no damage. They have high protection, so unless you have a big weapon you are unlikely to be punching through that.

Been getting killed by a lot of things that often aren't that dangerous, but just get a few lucky rolls in a row against me. I tend to increase melee and evasion a lot, but even with reasonable gear (shield, boots, armour without much evasion penalty) I often just get ground down by monsters. Running away often means eventually just fighting two monsters instead of just one in a corridor. I tend to not put any into stealth so maybe I should try that instead.

Try this: pick feanor or fingolfin, get 2/?/4/? or at 2/?/5/?. Take 5 or 6 in each of melee or evasion to start. Take charge if you like. When you get to 8 evasion, save up 1500xp and buy Dodging and Flanking.

Now, instead of hiding in corridors and swinging at monsters, try meeting them in an open room and move between them (using flanking attacks to do damage). The +3 from dodging is really helpful, monsters will generally get fewer attacks, and you will be less likely to get bottled into a corridor by monsters approaching from the other side.

I'm not really sure how to use the consumables when in trouble (apart from orcish liquor and slow poison). Are there any hints with early points/staffs/herbs to help in battle? Do staffs of light blind monsters or help you see invisible or anything? I rarely see trumpets.

These tricks won't help you too much, IMO. Light can be ok to frighten orcs, but if you're already hurt I think their cumulative morale will be enough to keep them hitting you.

Light will not help you see invisible.

When you have 2+ of a potion type, you might want to try use-iding it, but remember that pots can drain grace or dex, and herbs can drain str or con (worst).

Is it wise to hang around earlier levels for a while to get see invisible etc. before going to certain depths? I tend to try and do each level just once rather than scumming for better gear.

There are few invisible monsters in the game. The only ones you need to worry about are sulrauko (500'ish), cat assassins (800'ish), and hithrauko (950'ish).

If you get to 500' without see invis, it's not the end of the world. It works by giving you a +10 bonus to a perception check against your opponent; so, by increasing perception, you get help yourself out a bit. Keen Senses is great against both darkness-casting and invisible monsters (gives +5 to see invis, so like half of true sight). You can also drink !True sight if truly in a bind.

The odds of needing !True sight past, say, 600' are really minimal, so if you get blinded by a shadow spider or are getting sabotaged by a sulrauko, don't be afraid to drink one.

Also what % of times can the top players win the game? Is it rare or quite regular when you know how?

I have no idea. I'm assuming Psi, elliptic, clouded, a few others will probably win any character they put their mind to, but maybe not.

I feel like Sil is all about generating as much luck as possible for yourself. Once you get used to the early game, you can actually get out of some really nasty binds and more-or-less guarantee that you'll make it to 500'ish, where the odds of you finding an item or two that really turns the tide in your favor. Sometimes, though, shit just gets stacked against you. I've been to 600' feet before finding only boots as armor. is that rare? Yes, but it can happen

Btw I had a sword of Gondolin for ages, but despite killing loads of orcs and trolls it wouldn't identify. What do I need to do to get it to ID?

This is actually one of my least favorite things of vanilla sil right now, although I do see why it's there. If there's a situation where you could potentially id an item, you have to win a perception check.

It sounds like some of the problems you're having are potentially due to abysmally low perception. Even just a few points can help a lot in the early game, and it's very cheap to buy them.

[debo]

Did a bit better and got to 550' and killed by a Shadow Spider, here's the dump.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=15135

I seem to be getting to the killed by an invisible monster that comes out of nowhere stage at the moment.

If something is dark and biting you and causing you to go blind, it's a shadow spider. (There are also shadow bats at that depth -- they move very quickly, and so will generally hit twice a round for many crits but lowish damage.)

Shadow spiders won't follow you if they lose LOS. Best thing to do is to run for a corridor mouth, and then move diagonally out of it. It'll stop chasing you at that point.

Getting blinded is subject to a will check, I think. Just in case you were wondering

[TJS]

These are great tips thanks a lot.

You can hit it when it's invisible, but since they're erratic it can be good to dance around until they appear before taking a swing.

Good to know, but as usual I was surrounded in a corridor when facing them.

Watch your messages when fighting these. (Combat rolls are better.) A lot of times you are actually hitting it for no damage. They have high protection, so unless you have a big weapon you are unlikely to be punching through that.

Ok gotcha I could have swapped to an axe when facing them.

Try this: pick feanor or fingolfin, get 2/?/4/? or at 2/?/5/?. Take 5 or 6 in each of melee or evasion to start. Take charge if you like. When you get to 8 evasion, save up 1500xp and buy Dodging and Flanking.

I've never tried this since I was afraid of being surrounded in the open which is even worse then being surrounded in a corridor. Also often there are archer types which when there are a few of them can whittle your health down very quickly. I'll definitely give it a go though.

Btw does whirlwind attack work well with these abilities?

These tricks won't help you too much, IMO. Light can be ok to frighten orcs, but if you're already hurt I think their cumulative morale will be enough to keep them hitting you.

I get the feeling that unlike Angband you don't use consumables regularly to help you in battle. Just something to adjust to I guess.

The main use of consumables seems to be early xp.

When you have 2+ of a potion type, you might want to try use-iding it, but remember that pots can drain grace or dex, and herbs can drain str or con (worst).

When not dying early I seem to have a couple of stats drained and a few cursed pieces of equipment stuck to me. Perhaps I should take the curse breaking ability.

There are few invisible monsters in the game. The only ones you need to worry about are sulrauko (500'ish), cat assassins (800'ish), and hithrauko (950'ish).

If you get to 500' without see invis, it's not the end of the world. It works by giving you a +10 bonus to a perception check against your opponent; so, by increasing perception, you get help yourself out a bit. Keen Senses is great against both darkness-casting and invisible monsters (gives +5 to see invis, so like half of true sight). You can also drink !True sight if truly in a bind.

The odds of needing !True sight past, say, 600' are really minimal, so if you get blinded by a shadow spider or are getting sabotaged by a sulrauko, don't be afraid to drink one.

I totally forgot that seeing invisible monsters isn't binary, it's actually a really cool system. I used to take keen senses, but never seemed to be able to hit and evade stuff well enough. I'll take it before 500' next time.

I have no idea. I'm assuming Psi, elliptic, clouded, a few others will probably win any character they put their mind to, but maybe not.

I feel like Sil is all about generating as much luck as possible for yourself. Once you get used to the early game, you can actually get out of some really nasty binds and more-or-less guarantee that you'll make it to 500'ish, where the odds of you finding an item or two that really turns the tide in your favor. Sometimes, though, shit just gets stacked against you. I've been to 600' feet before finding only boots as armor. is that rare? Yes, but it can happen

I tend to find how well I do depends on luck as much as anything and wondered if it was just due to bad play on my part.

This is actually one of my least favorite things of vanilla sil right now, although I do see why it's there. If there's a situation where you could potentially id an item, you have to win a perception check.

It sounds like some of the problems you're having are potentially due to abysmally low perception. Even just a few points can help a lot in the early game, and it's very cheap to buy them.

Yep I'll bung a bit of XP in here every so often.

I think my main problem is that I still don't know how to move around the map safely. I like the idea of going around the edge of the map at first, but I find that where I go is restricted by which doors aren't stuck. Bashing them tends to attract monsters (I think) and makes you stunned so I try to avoid it
too often. So essentially I just follow the path of least resistance and end up getting surrounded in corridors a lot.

[Infinitum]

What I do when not trying to get Smiths off the ground is try to build reactively. All points in Melee/Evasion at the start to bonk Orcs more easily. As you noted the biggest threat earlygame is corrdior surrounds, so i immediatly get Crowd Fighting once available. Once I have crowd fighting, I build stealth until I can get Exchange Places and secure my escape (some stealth will also keep the amount of monsters zeroing in on your fights lower, thus increasing your odds of survival). Then I just keep building Melee/Evasion until Wargs start showing up, at which point running away at normal speed is no longer guaranteed to work. So, Dodging -> sprint.

Running into Easterlings -> Power/Finesse. Werewolves -> Resist Poison. Shadow Spiders -> Inner Light. Sulrauko -> Keen Senses. Giants -> Precise Shot Cats -> Critical Resistance. All excess points not going into prerequisite skills or abilities go into Melee/Evasion since those are always applicable.

Basically you get what you need the moment after you need it, and rely on judicous application of running away when spotting a threat you haven't built for yet. It's also less of a hassle than keeping track of stuffs minimum depth and is very flexible should you luck into suitable equipment before being forced to burn Xp to shore up perceived weaknesses, eg early rPoison or Lamp of Brightness etc.

When doing artifact builds I usually don't build stealth and instead try getting Boots/Greaves of Exchange Places at my second forge and generally plan out for gear resists through items instead - this is way more finicky than just putting those xp into getting stronk and trusting the rng to provide however.

EDIT: Oh, and try 2-handers rather than sword and board - larger damage bursts -> more morale lost -> Monsters running the opposite direction rather than swarming you. Keep a shield on hand for archers/gorcrows/whatever.

[Patashu]

Also often there are archer types which when there are a few of them can whittle your health down very quickly. I'll definitely give it a go though.

The enemy of archer types is armour + critical resistance, since they typically don't do much damage, and if you have armour absorbing normal damage and critical resistance to prevent their crits from getting through it they won't be able to do much to you.

Of course, there are many things about archer AI that you can learn to use against them:
-The way they try to move diagonally away from you, and how you can use this to guide them into the corridors/corners you want them to be in
-The way archers refuse to open closed doors unless you are far away from them (=> can hide behind a closed door and regen hp)
-You can always pick up Sprinting to be guaranteed to be able to catch up with an archer (and with Sprinting + Flanking, you can run circles around them while constantly hitting and not losing Sprinting, if you're clever)
-more... maybe morale stuff?

[wobbly]

Fear can be counter productive against archers, you end up scattering them in all directions, a major hassle if you don't have a bow yourself. Takes longer too with Elbereth (a bow of gondolin probably works fine) because they stay further away. With enough armour, say: mail of protection, round shield, boots, gauntlets (5-15) they're usually doing zero damage & you can actually stop to pick up items in a room full of orc archers.