I'm rubbish at the game, any tips?

[TJS]

I'm not very good at this game.

I seem to be following the same pattern every time, I get to about 450ft and get surrounded by orcs and can't do enough damage to ever clear them, gradually having my health whittled down to zero.

I tend to bung most of my starting points into melee, evasion and perception and then take Focused Attack and Concerntration to help clear early monsters away. Later I get Keen Senses and then Parry if I find a defender or Blocking if I find a good shield. Then I tend to up Evasion and Melee to try and counter the inevitable orc rush.

By the way, I would have expected Inner Light to counteract the darkness from shadow moulds, but it doesn't seem to make any different.

Also I got boots of Soft Tread <+3> but they only seemed to add +2 to my stealth score. Is that a bug or am I missing something?

[debo]

The most important thing I did to improve my early game was to learn how everything moves, and to recognize early when situations that seem fine now could go bad in 20 turns or so.

Learn to use corridors to draw orcs in and to manipulate their AI and pathing; try to always have an escape route handy; don't fight near stairs, and always consider stairs to be an imminent threat.

Also, if being surrounded is causing you problems, you might want to take dodging and flanking as a rule and try to fight in the open instead of taking monsters 1-1 in corridors. It gives you a lot more flexibility as you can often see earlier when things are going badly, and often you can gimmick the AI to clearing a path for you. Once you get sandwiched in a corridor, there's not much you can do to get out.

[Philip]

By the way, stealth gets decreased by 1 for every 10 pounds of armor, it's likely the 2 pounds from the boots pushed you over. And yeah, everything debo said applies.

[taptap]

For me the most important step was ridding myself of the notion I have to kill everything. With this I started to move around a lot more during a fight or even to retreat / flee and to learn about AI movement instead of making heroic/stupid last stands. A good, but painful way to learn to pick your fights are stealthy builds (hunter or assassin).

Figuring out effective combinations may come next. You already like the melee boosting perception abilities, then a light weapon with finesse (or even subtlety) or a weapon with many damage sides, i.e. a polearm, may be your friend.

[half]

I tend to bung most of my starting points into melee, evasion and perception and then take Focused Attack and Concerntration to help clear early monsters away. Later I get Keen Senses and then Parry if I find a defender or Blocking if I find a good shield. Then I tend to up Evasion and Melee to try and counter the inevitable orc rush.

My guess is that you'd do better with more melee/evasion than with Focused Attack or Blocking (unless you need the latter for archers). Charge, Power, Finesse, are probably more useful if you want abilities rather than just skill points (the first two with heavy weapons, the last with light ones).

By the way, I would have expected Inner Light to counteract the darkness from shadow moulds, but it doesn't seem to make any different.

It is having an effect, roughly like having one more point of light radius. Try switching it off when near a shadow mold to see the difference (press <tab>, then select the ability again).

[Patashu]

I seem to be following the same pattern every time, I get to about 450ft and get surrounded by orcs and can't do enough damage to ever clear them, gradually having my health whittled down to zero.

When you don't know what to look for, how to 'read' the game and the situation, it seems like you always get surrounded by orcs. But, actually, it's not required to happen like this.

Here are some things to try and think of.
-Take the Perception skill Listen. Now you can observe how things move around the map, where to be worried about flanks coming from, etc
-Think about where monsters COULD be on the map. They are randomly generated spread through the level, will path around in groups if awake, and can only appear/disappear at stairwells after the level has been generated. Meaning - if you fight with a staircase to your back (even if it's on the other end of a corridor or chain of rooms), don't be surprised when orcs come up and you're surrounded.
-If you explore the edges of a map first, there are less directions monsters can come out of nowhere from and flank you.
-Close doors. There is an 'undocumented feature' where if a door is opened, even if it's not in LoS, it changes on the map immediately. So your 'door sense' can be used to observe monsters moving across the map even if you have not taken Listen.
-If things just won't click for you, take the Stealth skill Exchange Places. By pressing X you can swap places with a nearby monster, provoking an attack from them. But - it makes being surrounded strictly a temporary condition.
-Pick your battles. After the first dozen of a creature killed, you aren't getting much experience from them. So why kill them? Are they in your way? Do you have the HP and are you OK with risking consumables on killing them? Is there another way around the level or a better tactical position to engage them in? Do you expect loot or will this be fruitless? Could you just descend to the next level now and look for greener pastures with better loot and more exp bearing new enemies? What good is killing an orc soldier for 0 exp and no loot, when it could randomly roll for as much as 14 damage (21 for orc warrior!!)?
-Orcs are really bad enemies. They rely on two things to become a threat: If you fight hundreds of orcs in a game, eventually one will get lucky and hit you into dangerous HP, and if many orcs are surrounding you they get stacking flanking bonuses to accuracy and are suddenly very dangerous and all hittingy ou at once. Stick it to the orcs by letting them do neither of these things.
-The Evasion skill Sprinting can help you run away from fights. Or you could build stealthily and never arouse fights you don't want to pick in the first place.

[TJS]

Thanks for all the excellent tips.

The most important thing I did to improve my early game was to learn how everything moves, and to recognize early when situations that seem fine now could go bad in 20 turns or so.

Learn to use corridors to draw orcs in and to manipulate their AI and pathing; try to always have an escape route handy; don't fight near stairs, and always consider stairs to be an imminent threat.

I sort of do this, but I'm not really sure where an escape route can go. When monsters are chasing you they tend to go at least the same speed and just keep following you, which means the stairs are the only real escape route. But often when I run for the stairs a load of orcs appear just as I'm getting near to them.

I think it's just because I don't understand the game very well. I had this same problem when I started playing Angband of running into monsters and then getting chased down, but I very rarely have this problem now.

[TJS]

My guess is that you'd do better with more melee/evasion than with Focused Attack or Blocking (unless you need the latter for archers). Charge, Power, Finesse, are probably more useful if you want abilities rather than just skill points (the first two with heavy weapons, the last with light ones).

I normally take the race/house with perception affinity so I get Focused Attack for free. It gives you a good first hit when monsters come into range and can do more damage than the next 4-5 hits combined. Unless I also take Concerntration (which is just 500 points more) which really helps for fights that take a few rounds.

I normally take Power and Finesse too also the first counteracts the second.

Charge sounds good, but I don't think it helps with getting surrounded which causes most of my deaths. Blocking helps prevent early death via orc archers.

It is having an effect, roughly like having one more point of light radius. Try switching it off when near a shadow mold to see the difference (press <tab>, then select the ability again).

Ah I see that makes sense.

I did a bit better in my last game making it down to 450ft, then I fought and beat a Werewolf which left me on 1 HP. I didn't notice that I was poisoned during the fight....

The lack of escapes and consumables makes it a really difficult game.

[MarvinPA]

I normally take the race/house with perception affinity so I get Focused Attack for free. It gives you a good first hit when monsters come into range and can do more damage than the next 4-5 hits combined. Unless I also take Concerntration (which is just 500 points more) which really helps for fights that take a few rounds.

I normally take Power and Finesse too also the first counteracts the second.

Bear in mind it's not really "just 500 points more", since you're also spending the experience on levelling perception. That's 2000 experience total for Concentration, plus another 1500 if you're getting both Finesse and Power. Personally I started feeling a lot more comfortable in the early-to-mid depths after I was given the advice to try spending XP almost exclusively just on levelling melee and evasion for a while. Even just one or two extra points can make a pretty big difference.

[taptap]

Bear in mind it's not really "just 500 points more", since you're also spending the experience on levelling perception. That's 2000 experience total for Concentration, plus another 1500 if you're getting both Finesse and Power. Personally I started feeling a lot more comfortable in the early-to-mid depths after I was given the advice to try spending XP almost exclusively just on levelling melee and evasion for a while. Even just one or two extra points can make a pretty big difference.

Yes, this. Shopping spree = low melee / evasion.

However, there is nothing wrong with early focus / concentration, many people don't try because they always take lore-master later, so can't afford many perception abilities - concentration alone easily equals on average 2-4 more points in 1-to-1 melee anyway. The combination of finesse and power, however, is most likely bad, it is an expensive damage +1 effect for melee only. The power side effect doesn't really matter for heavy weapons and finesse only plays out with mid to light-weight weapons - decide for one. If you like focus and concentration, I would go either polearm (polearm mastery + power + knockback) or shortsword (finesse + subtlety + parry/riposte - only switch to shortsword when you have subtlety). Here (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=14631) I experimented with a concentration at start and ridiculous high grace build, should be quite viable with less ridiculous stats e.g. 2 4 4 4. (This inspired me to an own attempt: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=15086 - dead quite early to a deathblade, but a kind of death that would only happen to me due to not using my consumables.)

To avoid getting surrounded, you can either generally move more carefully, run away, intimidate (read: Song of Elbereth) or do more damage (this kills them faster, but intimidates the bystanders as well).

P.S. The easiest way to find out is probably a look into debo's youtube videos. Debo plays very well himself, and in a few videos he comments on a game by clouded, who moves with even greater precision.

[TJS]

When you don't know what to look for, how to 'read' the game and the situation, it seems like you always get surrounded by orcs. But, actually, it's not required to happen like this.

This is very useful information, I'm going to try all of this out thanks a lot!

However, there is nothing wrong with early focus / concentration, many people don't try because they always take lore-master later, so can't afford many perception abilities - concentration alone easily equals on average 2-4 more points in 1-to-1 melee anyway.

I normally take Keen Senses later on (if I get that far) as well so the costs add up from those abilities as well I guess. I've tried a couple of games where I just increase melee and evasion instead of the Perception skills and the early game seems a little easier.

The combination of finesse and power, however, is most likely bad, it is an expensive damage +1 effect for melee only. The power side effect doesn't really matter for heavy weapons and finesse only plays out with mid to light-weight weapons - decide for one.

Yes I find it hard to quantify what finesse and power are worth. Power is almost like another point of strength in combat, although it just really hits for around 1-1.5 points more on average which isn't great.

I read that one of the biggest mistakes that beginners do is in spending all their experience on skills and not taking enough abilities.

I would go either polearm (polearm mastery + power + knockback)

The problem I have with this is that there just aren't very many good polearm weapons lying about in the early levels. I can go games without finding one.

[debo]

I read that one of the biggest mistakes that beginners do is in spending all their experience on skills and not taking enough abilities.

I think it's usually the opposite... too many abilities and not enough XP spent on skill points.

The problem I have with this is that there just aren't very many good polearm weapons lying about in the early levels. I can go games without finding one.

A plain (-1,1d9) spear wielded 2-handed with finesse is just fine in the early game. You might want something chunkier for the first armored dudes you run into (centipedes, easterling warriors) but you should find at least one battle axe or big sword before then which you can swap to.

[taptap]

Finesse and polearms:

While finesse is tempting you already need power for knockback (later) to make use of your focus more often. As I hate combining power with finesse, I would go power only. With high enough perception / melee critical hits will come even so.

Good polearms:

If you like focus/concentration polearms might be a good combination, if you don't like polearms focus/concentration isn't as powerful. (Polearms are about the only melee weapons to efficiently use focus.)

While I concede, that it might be harder with plain polearms, you very often find special polearms in the early floors. Try them, even if you want to go elsewhere with you character. A spear of Gondolin may not look much, but it does a whopping 2d13 (2 handed w/ 2 str) against orcs and trolls, i.e. more than the same character would do with a fine greatsword. And that is before any free attack / melee bonus / critical hit.

Power:

Most (even dangerous) opponents have hitpoints between 16 and 40, a single point more damage per hit is huge. Very often you need one or two hits less to kill with power.

[Scatha]

While finesse is tempting you already need power for knockback (later) to make use of your focus more often. As I hate combining power with finesse, I would go power only. With high enough perception / melee critical hits will come even so.

I sympathise with not wanting to combine Power with Finesse. My view is that it can be fine to do if you want a middle-of-the-road weapon (e.g. longsword) and not too many other melee abilities.

(Polearms are about the only melee weapons to efficiently use focus.)

Just to point out that it's also excellent for assassins. And it can be pretty good with a weapon and shield using Blocking and Controlled Retreat.

Power:

Most (even dangerous) opponents have hitpoints between 16 and 40, a single point more damage per hit is huge. Very often you need one or two hits less to kill with power.

Right, and this effect is even stronger because of the protection roll. If the opponents' protection brings your average damage for a hit down to 6, an extra 1.5 is an extra 25% damage. Against very heavily armoured foes it can be even better than that.

[taptap]

Right, and this effect is even stronger because of the protection roll. If the opponents' protection brings your average damage for a hit down to 6, an extra 1.5 is an extra 25% damage. Against very heavily armoured foes it can be even better than that.

Contemplating about this... rapid attack fully buffed with !str and !dex exactly doubles the damage, however low or high it is. When a single point of strength often already does an extra 25% damage, maybe momentum without rapid attack is a really good choice or at least on par for the few cases where it matters and/or if you try or have to go without sharpness. Say, momentum on a war hammer.