Sil: What are your least liked features of Sil?

[Psi]

That Mithril makes enchanting easier is also not that well explained in-game.

I never knew that! How does it make enchanting easier?

[fph]

If you recognize bad stuff by exclusion (orc doesn't pick it up, herb lying under a wright tends to be bad as well, weapon/armor IDable by weight/visible modifiers) - you don't get the XP.

I didn't know about the "orc doesn't pick it up" and "herb lying under a wright tends to be bad" methods of ID. All of this is taking a very Nethack-ish spin (for those who don't know: in Nethack, id'ing is mostly done by checking the outcome of a zillion of hard-coded side effects, such as using gems to engrave, dipping in potions, interacting with monsters, and so on. Typically, players figure out about most of these tricks using spoilers, since many of them are really crazy stuff).

[locus]

Maybe increasing the drop rate for Staves of Understanding could help implicitly nerf Lore-Master? AFAICT Lore-Master, Staff of Understanding, or Smithing are the only ways to ID an Amulet of Adornment.

[clouded]

These are very good points. Lore master isn't simply ignoring the ID game, it gives you quite a large number of advantages.

[taptap]

If that's the case, I'm just being dense -- because I can't see how the math would ever really work out in your favor in the long run by taking loremaster if you're actually good at the ID game.

I guess in cases where there's a vault full of stuff where you're too scared to enter -- a loremaster character would get the XP for seeing everything, whereas a non-loremaster guy would have to run without being able to id them?

I try to play the ID game, because I like the other perception abilities, but if you don't find a staff you need to carry sanctity staffs (if you have enough of them) with you. If you recognize bad stuff by exclusion (orc doesn't pick it up, herb lying under a wright tends to be bad as well, weapon/armor IDable by weight/visible modifiers) - you don't get the XP. It doesn't help you that as player you might know exactly what it is. The same goes for self knowledge identified items. If you burned your sanctity staff you just don't pick up potentially dangerous items -> no XP. Sustaining only artifacts are hard to ID by use - you would need to carry them around quite a long time and in unpleasant situations (I usually wouldn't risk drain on the off chance I have IDable sustaining item) to ever realize what they are. Not daring to pick up things in certain rooms is quite common whenever I try a stealthy character... Of course you can take curse breaking or only lore keeper - but having to buy the halfway ability somehow defeats the purpose of saving in that department. You also quaff/chew a lot of useful consumables in the process either just by testing them, by using them to undo damage inflicted by testing, or due to failed tests (voice potions, restoration herbs), run out of baggage slots earlier and you might miss crucial knowledge on dangerous enemies before the first engagement - how high exactly is that cat assassins perception?

[debo]

Well, I think the issue here is that there is a legitimate thought that you should always take lore-master when you can to *gain* XP.

If that's the case, I'm just being dense -- because I can't see how the math would ever really work out in your favor in the long run by taking loremaster if you're actually good at the ID game.

I guess in cases where there's a vault full of stuff where you're too scared to enter -- a loremaster character would get the XP for seeing everything, whereas a non-loremaster guy would have to run without being able to id them?

[clouded]

If you don't, eat the few thousand XP you need to spend in order to avoid it.

Well, I think the issue here is that there is a legitimate thought that you should always take lore-master when you can to *gain* XP.

[debo]

I'd like to say in response to people complaining about Lore-Master that it's only the existence of Lore-Master that keeps me from listing "the ID minigame" among my least liked features of Sil.

+428000

I don't see any need to change this. If you like the ID game, play it. If you don't, eat the few thousand XP you need to spend in order to avoid it.

I should have listed the design decision to put loremaster in the game high up in my list of things I love about Sil.

I absolutely hate the id game in pretty much every roguelike I've ever played, and while Sil does it very well it's just not something I would ever be entertained by.

[T-Mick]

Perhaps if Lore-Master wasn't instant. Like the pseudo ID in Angband, but more exact. That way, it would have the same overall effect, but not be so amazing that every player takes it.

[locus]

I'd like to say in response to people complaining about Lore-Master that it's only the existence of Lore-Master that keeps me from listing "the ID minigame" among my least liked features of Sil.

[taptap]

I agree on throwing weapons. It is very hard to use them (I only ever tried spears) efficiently - not that they don't do enough damage, but I tend to discard better quality for stackable items all the time and there is really no way I hold on a single throwing axe with a slay on it unless I need a warning system.

Smithing: I never played an endgame with a smithing character but the high commitment to smithing combined with the uncertainty of forges and/or power to defend forges when you find them frustrated me somewhat. But it certainly is powerful.

I would consider taking away the second hand slot for smithing bonus and the masterpiece skill point burning, this might limit the range of available skill values enough to deescalate the smithing costs somewhat. Smithing is also the only skill which isn't transparent right away, but only after you took all the abilities (I never understood the effects until I took every ability at least once, not to speak of the modifiers for artifice, artistry, enchantment) That Mithril makes enchanting easier is also not that well explained in-game.

I agree that Loremaster is too cheap. In my games non-perception chars tend to take it, but perception specialists (that already want at least 4 other abilities on the tree and the grace point) end up avoiding it. The ID mini game is quite limited as you only have monster pickup / drop, creating items and use identification - and throwing, but I never do that. I don't understand why the smithing abilities allow you to create things, but not to identify the very same items you would be able to create.

I realize I agree to most what fph wrote but just wrote more paragraphs about it. Well...
----

I don't share the feelings about worms, they were only a problem when I played without stealth and only mediocre damage output - even a few cheap points of stealth and habitually closing doors, not to talk about generally better damage output which reduces noise significantly basically solved the worm problem. I don't share the feelings of some regarding violet molds either. Violet molds are so rare now, that even with my careless play I rarely lose constitution to them anymore.

[half]

Heavy Armor Use: Increases your protection by 1dX, where X is the weight of your armor in pounds, divided by 15 (rounded down).

Inner Light: Does not increase your light radius, but does add +1 to the light intensity in all squares within your current light radius.

Song of the Trees: Increases light level by 1 per 5 points of Song.

Song of Staying: Increases your Will by 1 point per 3 points of Song. Increases your protection by 1dX where X is Song / 3

I've changed these in line with your recommendations.

[bron]

Poison Resistance works on poison breath attacks

You're absolutely right of course; can't imagine where my head was at on that one. Although describing how it actually works might be a little wordy for the short description. May be something like "Provides one level of resistance against poison breath attacks, which is cumulative with other forms of poison resistance" and counting on a description in the manual to fill in the details? I admit I'd like to also see "One level of resistance cuts poison breath damage by one-half, two levels cuts it by two-thirds, etc." but all three sentences may well be too long for the short description. Whatever you decide.

[half]

Poison Resistance: Opponents with a Poison Melee attack no longer get an extra die of damage. Does NOT offer additional protection against Poison Breath attacks.

Thanks for all of these. Good ideas. Except that this one is incorrect. Poison Resistance works on poison breath attacks just as fire resistance works on fire breath attacks etc. Or if not, then that's a bug.

[ekolis]

Sorry if someone's mentioned this already, but the damned neverending bands of marauding orcs that keep coming up/down the staircases!