Sil: What are your least liked features of Sil?

[Scatha]

Some really useful replies here: thanks, and keep them coming! We'll definitely give some serious thought to ways we might address some of these concerns.

In response to a couple of the recent points on equipment balance, I just wanted to explain a little of the reasoning behind the way things are.

A major factor behind equipment balancing is to make thematic choices and effective choices coincide. We want elves to use axes sometimes and dwarves to use swords sometimes, so the bonuses for using a preferred type are kept pretty small. Of the blunt weapons hammers and mattocks are occasional martial weapons mentioned by Tolkien, so we want them to be worth using occasionally. This means that they are typically a little worse than swords, but in the right circumstances or with the right hammer, they'll be worthwhile. Sceptres and Quarterstaves just aren't martial weapons, so shouldn't compare well for that. The image of an adventurer descending with a sceptre is an unusual one. I think that there are enough interesting reasons to use one occasionally. It might be nice if there were just a couple of similar reasons to use quarterstaves. (Note: this isn't meant to address debo's comments on throwing axes or daggers! Daggers in particular are a known issue, but it's interesting to find out how much this irks others.)

In a similar way, we don't think -- thematically -- that everyone should want to use the heaviest armour available. Hauberks and Kite Shields are deliberately at the top end of that. They are perfect in some cases and for some builds, but often not wanted by others, and it sounds like your (fph's) characters fall into the latter bucket. If they're almost never used over a variety of builds and situations, on the other hand, that's an indication that we've got the balance wrong. Having read ladder entries I don't think that's what you're suggesting, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Let us know to what extent that explanation deals with the problems or if they still feel wrong!

[fph]

Since we are at balancing issues, I use only very rarely hauberks and those 1d6 (-2) shields -- the penalty seems too harsh for what they provide over a corslet or a small shield. Is it only me? Maybe my judgment is skewed, but they look like they could use an adjustment.

[debo]

OK, Azaghal stabbed Glaurung with a dagger

While still harping on the dwarf thing -- I forgot to mention that I often use throwing axes as _melee_ weapons in the early game, since it's pretty much the only useful weapon that dwarves will get a net +1 to melee with. Especially if you get a 2d5 one, that's not really that much different than wielding a longsword.

Might be worth considering changing "throwing axes" to "hand axes" and keeping the "efficient to throw" flag on them, just like daggers in the sword tree. This conflicts with the idea of bucketing throwing weapons so they stack easier, but I'm happy to have one or the other.

I'm not even sure that 'throwing axes' are thematic -- I don't remember ever hearing of them in any of the Tolkein books? They're the last weapon in the list that is sort of a 'thematic clash' for me.

And that also reminds me -- it bothers me that daggers suck so bad for stabby characters. Shortswords are basically always superior. Daggers are also arse throwing weapons, so I think there's room for some cleanup here.

Finally -- blunt weapons are still pretty lamoid. No one has a proficiency in them, war hammers are probably the only remotely useful ones and they require huge strength to use effectively -- and now, with momentum, there are plenty of other options in the one-handed megadamage realm.

Quarterstaves are pretty lol -- +2 evasion is nice, but that's really only useful for archers, and a shield + a longsword would get you to the same place with protection bonus to boot. Those new sceptre things are cruft IMO even with the early brands, since the damage sides are so so pathetic. Every time I find a sceptre of fire, i find myself wishing it was a different weapon/ego combo

[Nick]

Only counts if first age

nyahhhhhh

OK, Azaghal stabbed Glaurung with a dagger

[debo]

Nothing unthematic about using a sword - Thorin did

Only counts if first age

nyahhhhhh

[Antoine]

Nothing unthematic about using a sword - Thorin did

[bron]

it's confusing to me that rfear isn't on the will tree in some form

*That* was the other thing! I knew I was forgetting something. I agree completely. I complained about this point months ago, admittedly in a post that did a lot of whining and complaining about random stuff (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=5650).

[Psi]

Definitely agree with HM on rFear - should be something in Will tree to cover it. I'm always having to save a slot for Defiance or the like when it is perhaps the most natural thing you'd expect to find under Will.

[debo]

Whoa, i thought Clarity gave rFear. I never take it, though, so I guess I never found out I learned something today!

[HallucinationMushroom]

Hmm, I guess if I had to point out something, it's confusing to me that rfear isn't on the will tree in some form or fashion, or perhaps tacking on rfear to a song like slaying or something. It just seems natural, since you can control your hunger, break curses and resist confu/hallu on the will tree, but not fear. Fear is something I worry about late game, so I try to have rage and liquor available as even when I have decent will score and maybe even rfear on an item, I still get afraid sometimes.

I've no beef with Dwarves, I would tally them second easiest race to win with... but you stealthy/archer types probably peg Sindar easier. They are supposed to be challenge races, after all.

[Philip]

If you don't like dwarves, stop playing them. If they feel weak, then play them as challenge games. I also don't like dwarves, because they are contrary to my playstyle, so I don't play them. Dwarves were considerably less powerful than Noldor (their only achievement being to severely wound glaurung, while the Noldor killed a whole load of balrogs, did damage to Morgoth et al. One of them barehand killed a werewolf.

[debo]

I don't actually understand all the angst with dwarves. They're really not that much harder than the Sindar IMO, just different, and there's no general outcry to make the Sindar stronger

The only thing I'd maybe like to see with them is a re-jigger of stat / proficiency combos, since Belegost feels inferior to Nogrod in some critical ways that aren't really made up for by the Will proficiency.

I imagine that something as simple as giving both dwarf houses +1 Dex would go a long way to smoothing out the early game for them, but as HM said -- if you're willing to do unthematic things like wield a longsword for the first few hundred feet, you can increase your odds a bit.

But I don't think this thread was supposed to be a conversation thread, so I'ma gonna shush now

[andrey]

As I said in the previous post, I don't really like the fact that the Dwarves are so lousy. Please make them a bit stronger to play.

Swords are much more versatile than axes - you have a span from short sword to great sword, which allows you changing your tactics according to the monster you meet. I use to switch weapons a lot in the game. Axes are only on one part of the range. Also, there are defender swords, which combined with parry give you +4 to evasion, which is a huge buff.

Also, most of the artifact weapons are swords, so you're most likely to be forced to play with a sword anyway by the late game, unless you artifice.

Archery is so useful that I tend to use it with Naugrim anyway, but with the (-2) penalty - (compared to elves).

Elves start with lambas, Dwarves have dark bread. That means that a Dwarf smith cannot smith out a helm of radiance because he can't restore that grace point.

Elves have +2 more points in (str,dex,con,gra) which is a lot more.

To be fair, I am kind of "cheating" right now to play dwarves. I've edited the files in the "edit" folder and gave them a buff in the (s,d,c,g) department. I am attaching my "fair races" files , in case someone else have the same feelings about dwarves. (These files are to be unpacked in the "edit" folder). I hope that the author is not offended by this act of editing.

[bron]

1) Sil, by design, has elements with high variance. I find it to be just a little *too* random in the early going. Too many characters die in those first couple hundred feet, no matter what you do.

2) It is not possible to forge certain artefacts that you can find, no matter how good you are. You cannot make your own Ringil clone, because the game won't let you put that much evasion on a sword. You can't make a Crown of Feanor because you can't put Smithing on a crown. And so on. I understand the usual dodge in these situations is to say "the skills needed to do that were lost in a bygone age", but isn't Sil supposed to be set *in* that bygone age of skill?

3) Archery is too good.

4) The Naugrim deserve a (little) buff.

5) The game encourages "restart scumming". e.g. you want to run a smithing character, so you just play the first couple of levels over and over until eventually you find those Smithing gauntlets and another forge at 200 feet.

6) No one except the one Edain house has Melee affinity.

7) Forging can be horribly frustrating since you have to commit to a forging strategy early on, yet can get hosed if you don't find enough forges, something that is completely outside of your control.

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Now, that said, I will mention my personal suggestions about what might be done about these, but I wanted to make a clear separation between the statement of things I don't particularly like, and my own probably stupid ideas about dealing with (some of) these:

The character should have more starting equipment. Some leather armor and a pair of boots would go a long way to boosting early survivability. It's not like you weren't going to find some eventually anyway.

Characters should not be able to have both a bow and a melee weapon ready. The game already recognizes you can't have both a 2-handed weapon and a (1-handed) shield, so why can you have both a 2-handed weapon and a (2-handed) bow? Being forced to swap between them (as in Moria) would cut down on the effectiveness of bows, without needing to change any of the archery mechanics.

As I've said elsewhere about the Naugrim: Belegost should add Melee affinity, Nogrod should add Will affinity.

I would like to see a Smithing ability that lets you squeeze one extra use out of a forge. One more use would not let you forge 2 artifacts at a single forge, but would ensure that you could always forge one, even if it was nominally a 2-use forge. This would help mitigate problems for unlucky smithers, at the cost of taking the ability. You should not be allowed to put such a skill onto an artifact.

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Lastly, along the lines of my complaint about the lack of melee affinity characters, I think it would be fun to be able to do a *complete* design-your-own character. E.g. you get 6 starting stat points (no more than 3 points in any one stat), and your choice of 2 affinities and one proficiency. With the option to get a 7th stat for the cost of a negative stat point, and/or a third affinity at the cost of a skill penalty (like the Naugrim do). I imagine Half-Trolls with 3 Str, 1 Dex, 3 Con, -1 Gra. Or maybe you should only start with 4 stat points and 1 affinity+proficiency for a full design-your-own. But it sounds like fun.

[emulord]

1. Opaque forced descent turncount.
I feel like drying up exp / torches / light should make this worthwhile anyway. Maybe increase danger if you stay somewhere too long, like Morgoth's minions have caught on that there is an intruder. Accompanied by a message so the player is aware of the mechanic.

2. Skill/experience system.
I'm not a fan of "choose skill" levelups anyway, because mistakes are permanent and can cripple a otherwise decent character. I like DoomRL because its levelup system is simple enough to completely comprehend at once. Increasing costs and planning ahead is too difficult to "wing it". You have to die A LOT to figure out a good build or cheat and look at ladder characters.

2b. HOWEVER. I love the "see monster exp" and "kill monster exp" that becomes less significant. And without making increasing costs, of course unbalanced builds would be the only way to go. Im not sure how to improve, its just not my cup of tea.