Sil: What are your least liked features of Sil?

[BlueFish]

I'm removing 2-use forges from the game. The amount of frustration and road blocks they add to certain builds, compared to the amount of fun 4 use forges add, is astronomical. All forges in my game are now 3-use.

[locus]

I'm removing 2-use forges from the game. The amount of frustration and road blocks they add to certain builds, compared to the amount of fun 4 use forges add, is astronomical. All forges in my game are now 3-use.

Makes sense. Variable forge uses seems like variable starting torches and variable starting sword weight in that it's random for the sake of randomness without adding anything to the gameplay.

[absolutego]

I very much dislike molds. As a matter of design. I can't see what purpose they serve, outside of having squares that are safe for monsters but not for you. Worms do that but also give you a choice (kill them now or risk them multiplying, while being easier to kill), and they also move around which is good because they don't block random corridors or loot/forges for no reason. I think with a bit of redesign worms could take their place.

Another thing I don't like is archer AI. It's very predictable and it makes killing a full pack a rote task in many if not most circumstances. I don't know how to solve this (randomisation? easier fleeing? easy to make it worse).

[Scatha]

Makes sense. Variable forge uses seems like variable starting torches and variable starting sword weight in that it's random for the sake of randomness without adding anything to the gameplay.

It adds a little to the gameplay, in encouraging artificers to sometimes make non-artefacts. But I admit that there are other ways you could achieve that.

[absolutego]

I forgot: I like how monsters can push you out of the stairs (a lot actually), but not how they come in groups. It happened to me once that Boldog's full pack came down, about 15 or 16 guys surrounded me in one turn and killed me on the next turn. elliptic mentioned they should come through one by one which is a good compromise, I think.

[Patashu]

I forgot: I like how monsters can push you out of the stairs (a lot actually), but not how they come in groups. It happened to me once that Boldog's full pack came down, about 15 or 16 guys surrounded me in one turn and killed me on the next turn. elliptic mentioned they should come through one by one which is a good compromise, I think.

Yeah, I like the idea of them coming through one at a time - it still performs the intended purpose of making the stairs unusable due to the monsters walking in, and unless you can kill the monsters as fast as they come out they'll still eventually be able to gang up on you.

[half]

I forgot: I like how monsters can push you out of the stairs (a lot actually), but not how they come in groups. It happened to me once that Boldog's full pack came down, about 15 or 16 guys surrounded me in one turn and killed me on the next turn. elliptic mentioned they should come through one by one which is a good compromise, I think.

Yes, that would be better and we ideally wanted to do it that way, but it would require a lot of special code. Our very limited dev time is currently going on things we think players will find to be of higher value.

[TJS]

I've had some time off this week and have starting playing Sil finally. I'm not very good at it though so not sure if you want views from someone who doesn't know the game very well.

The stats/skills/abilities thing is a cool idea (especially non-levelling up hitpoints), but it is a little bit unintuitive. Constitution and Strength are conceptually different from Dexterity and Grace as far as I can see as the first two are essentially skills that can otherwise not be levelled up through experience once the game starts, whereas the other two are really just bonuses to 4 other skills each.

Then you can level up skills themselves by using experience which grants you skill points, which can be spent on abilities which then also require experience too. It feels a little bit unwieldy to need both for abilities.

Also I find the abilities quite beginner unfriendly, although I'm not really sure if that's a problem or not. I guess a lot of them are really useful when you know how to use them, but I find it difficult to see how for a lot of them. Double block rolls for shields when you don't move? How can you ever do any damage or escape then? Or they will work well with other abilities that you can't afford to get for ages (eg. I imagine that Dodge and Flank work well together, but I've not managed to get that far). Also the pre-requisites have a similar problem in that you have to take less useful (to my eyes anyway) abilities before taking the one you actually want. It also reduces flexibility.

Is strength underpowered? It's probably just the fact that I don't know the game well enough, but it just seems to buff damage a bit as its main function. Whereas dexterity helps you hit stuff, helps you evade, increases stealth and also increases damage through more critical hits. And it unlocks a load of abilities. Another nerf to strength seems to be the way heavier weapons are less likely to score a critical hit. You'd think that the weight and power of a hit could cause a critical through shear force as it tears through armour or breaks bones.

Forges - I just have a bit of trouble with the whole idea of being in a lethal dungeon where you are barely surviving and then you can just suddenly stop and use a convenient forge to create a nice piece of armour. It's like stopping and cooking a roast in an abandoned oven or something. This is probably almost certainly just me though. Also on my version I couldn't seem to create anything as forge selection menu cycled through the type and then item and when I went to select it by pressing return it jumps back to the start of the menu again (even when I have the necessary skills).

Throwing weapons - I also have a little bit of a problem with these conceptually (have there been any fighters in real life that throw axes about instead of holding them? Imagine carrying a load of axes about just to throw once each.) and without a quiver type slot for them they are too much hassle to use. Dunno this is probably just me again. I wouldn't suggest adding a quiver for them though as that would seem even more odd.

Getting experience for seeing stuff. Not sure about this really as I kinda like getting it, but am not sure it feels quite right. Like getting really good at sports by watching the TV all day. It feels a bit like a gameplay mechanism purely to allow pacifist characters.

The usual Roguelike minigame tropes that I don't like all that much - ID, light turn management, food, sticky curses. I find the ID and food ones particularly frustrating as a beginner when you don't know all the possibly bad types that are available. I've been killed a few times by eating the only herb I have left that basically makes you starve to death. It also doesn't help that food is essentially invisible on the map.

UI wise I don't like having to hit * to see anything in my inventory etc. and keep pressing escape to clear messages all the time which brings up the menu. And you have to pick up stuff to see how much it weighs. Would also be nice to have Angband style information about how much damage on average a weapon does or armour absorbs when you examine it.

Too many orcs.

The game is ace by the way and I'm going to be playing it loads despite all my complaining.

[Scatha]

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, it is useful to get impressions from new players as this is something we can have difficulty accessing. We're unlikely to put too much weight on your balance suggestions at this stage, but it's good to know the general feeling and impressions you have of various parts of the game.

[MarvinPA]

UI wise I don't like having to hit * to see anything in my inventory etc. and keep pressing escape to clear messages all the time which brings up the menu. And you have to pick up stuff to see how much it weighs. Would also be nice to have Angband style information about how much damage on average a weapon does or armour absorbs when you examine it.

There's an option to automatically display those lists, "Automatically display drop-down lists", and one to clear -more- prompts with any key (are those really both not true by default?). The weight thing annoyed me too so I patched it to make weight always visible.

Not being able to read about all the possible item types as a new player was a huge pain for me as well. An awkward work-around is to start a separate game and use your starting experience to get Lore-Master, and check out the items on the item knowledge screen (~). Ideally you'd just always be able to view item knowledge though (I partially implemented this, but didn't figure out how to display full item descriptions without leaking identification information yet).

[evilmike]

Throwing weapons - I also have a little bit of a problem with these conceptually (have there been any fighters in real life that throw axes about instead of holding them? Imagine carrying a load of axes about just to throw once each.) and without a quiver type slot for them they are too much hassle to use. Dunno this is probably just me again. I wouldn't suggest adding a quiver for them though as that would seem even more odd

I'm a bit off topic here, but...

The Franks famously used throwing axes, although as far as I know, each soldier only carried one or two. I can't think of anyone else who used throwing axes, except maybe some native Americans in the eastern USA (they used tomahawks, but I think those were more of a general purpose axe). The Roman legions threw javelins before engaging in melee, each soldier carried two. For both the franks and romans, these throwing weapons were used en masse before the army entered melee, as a way to disorient the enemy army and make their shields hard to use.

I doubt anyone carried a stack of javelins or axes around, it would've been too heavy. I can't think of any accounts of people carrying more than 2. And they were never a general purpose weapon, just something to begin a battle with.

In the case of daggers I don't think specialized throwing daggers were ever a thing for actual military/combat uses. More like, you'd throw your dagger as an improvised projectile if it actually made sense to. Carrying a whole bunch of daggers around would be impractical.

I'd guess darts would be the most common thrown weapon in history but even then, it made sense to use them with a sling. Neither of which exist in sil.

This is all to say, "throwing weapons" as they are in Sil are mostly just a fantasy thing.

[taptap]

I'm a bit off topic here, but...

For both the franks and romans, these throwing weapons were used en masse before the army entered melee, as a way to disorient the enemy army and make their shields hard to use.

I doubt anyone carried a stack of javelins or axes around, it would've been too heavy. I can't think of any accounts of people carrying more than 2. And they were never a general purpose weapon, just something to begin a battle with.

...

This is all to say, "throwing weapons" as they are in Sil are mostly just a fantasy thing.

En masse and to break formations is the most important point in my opinion. Hard to do this in a single-player game like Sil. Otherwise Sil is pretty close with only a few spears / throwing axes that can be useful in certain situations (early spiders, giants, dragons) but no way for sustained combat. Personally, I always hold on to a few spears in early and midgame with non archery, melee builds.

But the Romans knew lighter javelins than a pilum as far as I know (that were more specialized throwing weapons). I believe debo is right, that overspecialization in throwable spears would damage feel and gameplay in Sil. In a way the amazing carrying capacity without encumbrance in Sil makes spears a cross between a real spear in melee and a light javelin when throwing. Not exactly realistic, but a good compromise to keep the item count low.

[half]

Not exactly realistic, but a good compromise to keep the item count low.

That's right. You need to do a certain amount of abstraction when designing a game. My general view on throwing weapons in Sil is that I'm not too fussed by them being in the game or not. Some people like to have them and would accuse the game of being unrealistic if you couldn't throw things, others accuse it of being unrealistic if you can, most don't really mind much either way. I definitely wouldn't want throwing weapons to be too powerful since it is very difficult to get a good interface for them and it would be bad if everyone was best off using something that is not that representative of the era depicted and has a somewhat haphazard interface.

I will say though, that I'm not sure whether throwing weapons were only used in formations. Obviously that is where most of the evidence is but that would be true regardless as most killing with dedicated weapons presumably happens in war. I'm hard pressed to come up with historical precedents of lone people wandering the hills and forests and caves and killing things while wearing martial armour and weaponry of any sort whatsoever (e.g. mail, shields, swords?), so I don't see that as a very fair challenge for anything to be able to meet. I wouldn't be shocked if many (all?) types of throwing weapons are anachronistic, but I haven't encountered strong evidence either way.

[BlueFish]

Also I find the abilities quite beginner unfriendly, although I'm not really sure if that's a problem or not. I guess a lot of them are really useful when you know how to use them, but I find it difficult to see how for a lot of them. Double block rolls for shields when you don't move? How can you ever do any damage or escape then? Or they will work well with other abilities that you can't afford to get for ages (eg. I imagine that Dodge and Flank work well together, but I've not managed to get that far). Also the pre-requisites have a similar problem in that you have to take less useful (to my eyes anyway) abilities before taking the one you actually want. It also reduces flexibility.

Yeah there are a lot of really cool synergies. But at my medium-experienced level of play I'm still hard pressed to find many of the more complex 'tactical' ones useful as compared to the simple ones like Power (adds damage) or charge or sprinting (adds speed). Then again there can be a difference between fun and useful, and you can always play the "easy" race if you're struggling to survive with a fun set of skills to play around with.

Is strength underpowered? It's probably just the fact that I don't know the game well enough, but it just seems to buff damage a bit as its main function. Whereas dexterity helps you hit stuff, helps you evade, increases stealth and also increases damage through more critical hits. And it unlocks a load of abilities. Another nerf to strength seems to be the way heavier weapons are less likely to score a critical hit. You'd think that the weight and power of a hit could cause a critical through shear force as it tears through armour or breaks bones.

It's probably not underpowered if you use a heavy 3 die weapon. It'll add 1.5 average damage per strength point in that case. That may not sound like a huge amount but with the way protection works, by subtracting itself from damage, your net average damage can be pretty low against high protection enemies, and that 1.5 extra can increase average damage by a large percent.

This will become more important in the next version presumably after they nerf "song of sharpness", which reduces enemy protection and basically makes strength as underpowered as you say.

[Derakon]

I'm hard pressed to come up with historical precedents of lone people wandering the hills and forests and caves and killing things while wearing martial armour and weaponry of any sort whatsoever (e.g. mail, shields, swords?), so I don't see that as a very fair challenge for anything to be able to meet. I wouldn't be shocked if many (all?) types of throwing weapons are anachronistic, but I haven't encountered strong evidence either way.

I think you're right in that adventurers, ronin, wandering lone mercenaries, and the like were vanishingly rare at best. If nothing else, society tends to frown on dangerous armed people who have nobody taking responsibility for their actions.

As for throwing weapons, Roman throwing darts are pretty well-documented. I'm not so familiar with the javelins myself. Usually when I think of javelins, I think of launching them with an atlatl, but I suppose that javelin-throwing as practiced in the Olympics presumably has some basis in ancient martial arts. Similarly, there's documented evidence of e.g. early man taking part in a mass stoning of a herd of baboons, but usually when you think of throwing rocks in a martial context, you think of using a sling.

In short, while thrown weapons can be effective, launched weapons tend to be vastly more so. The increase in leverage translates to an increase in velocity and thus capacity to cause damage.